Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Ben Kenobi]

Do you really see six digit fines as proportionate, Ming?

[rah]

What fear mongering? it's a direct quote from Obama that he believes the Catholic church and her teachings on marriage are directly contrary to the federal government, and he intends to bring the power of the federal government to bear on the Catholic church to force us to comply.

Actually you and I both posted the quote from that crappy fear mongering article and nowhere in it did it say what you just claimed.
Please point out where it said that. Not the biased opinion of the authors.

[Jon Miller]

There is actually something to Ben's concern there. I have seen left wing periodicals such as the Atlantic share a similar concern. But it is hidden in all of his garbage.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

There is actually something to Ben's concern there. I have seen left wing periodicals such as the Atlantic share a similar concern. But it is hidden in all of his garbage.

Thank you Jon. It's plain as day to me that this is where we are headed. Catholics have been here before. We outlasted the Glorious revolution and we'll still be here kicking long after this revolution has passed on.

[rah]

There's always going to be wackos out there. (poly case in point)
I doubt it would ever gain enough traction. But as the article Ben linked to, can be used for fear mongering.

I would have no problem with all churchs losing their tax exempt status. I've never thought it was fair, and wouldn't see it as persecution.

[Ben Kenobi]

I doubt it would ever gain enough traction. But as the article Ben linked to, can be used for fear mongering.

It's not fearmongering if it's true. Jon's confirmed that even the Atlantic is expressing that opinion. Your argument that 'no one believes this', is simply, quite false.

[rah]

You can find someone that believes anything. That unicorns exist or other fantasy characters.
The point is that the article you quoted infers the president said it where it's clear that he did not

[Ming]

Do you really see six digit fines as proportionate, Ming?

The legal experts on the court thought so.
And if it stops some other business from discriminating while trying to hide their bigotry behind the guise of religion, so be it.

But yet again, you are trying to change the subject.
Face it, the courts don't agree with your poor opinion of the law.

And back to the thread... Are you going to follow what your pope tells you.

[Jon Miller]

There's always going to be wackos out there. (poly case in point)
I doubt it would ever gain enough traction. But as the article Ben linked to, can be used for fear mongering.

I would have no problem with all churchs losing their tax exempt status. I've never thought it was fair, and wouldn't see it as persecution.

I hear a lot of people saying this.

It makes no sense to me, taxes are only payed on profits and there are no profits involved.

The only way a tax would be implemented is as some sort of tax punishing churches... which is obviously unfair/unjust.

JM
(On the other hand, there is a good case for removing the tax advantages for charitable donations for all charitable donations, not just for religious charities. But that once more isn't about taxing religious institutions.)

[rah]

The only way a tax would be implemented is as some sort of tax punishing churches... which is obviously unfair/unjust.

I don't see it that way. I see it as removing of an unfair advantage, not a punishment. But again, Just my Opinion.

Why shouldn't the church pay property taxes? They use city services, fire, police, and others. Why should none religious people have to pay a larger amount to make up for what the church gets free. That's what I think is unfair. But yes, if they're non-profit, no income tax should be assessed. That we can agree on.

[Jon Miller]

How is that an unfair advantage? If we taxed on revenues instead of profits all institutions would fail/close.

As far as property taxes go, other non-profits also do not pay property tax. It is not an advantage that religious institutions get as a religious institution. Non-profit hospitals/museums/etc also do not pay property tax.

Additionally, what is a fair property tax? For Cathedrals/etc, other places can't use them, so it is difficult to value them (for Cathedrals they are valued by their religion and not others, traditional church buildings are more 'generic' and can have a market but it is still much more limited then housing or office buildings). They are much more like Museums/Parks/Hospitals/etc then not.

I agree that they need to be open sometimes to the public, but they are.

JM

[rah]

I'm talking property taxes. Paying for local services. NOT on revenues or profits.
Why should the poor person have to pay more because the Church pays nothing.
How is that fair.

[Jon Miller]

Why should the poor person pay more (poor person paying property tax?) because the Hospital/etc pays nothing? How is that fair?

JM
(And the in case of Cathedrals/etc you can argue that they are only worth money as Museums, meaning that a property valuation of the property is impossible. Note that this isn't the case for other uses of property, churches/etc should pay for property that isn't for religious use and do, although you can sometimes see really convoluted reasoning there.)

[rah]

Actually the Hospital pays. If it is privately owned.
And yes, poor people are required to pay property tax. If they don't own property, they are being indirectly charged it as part of their rent.

[Jon Miller]

It doesn't seem to:

http://www.nber.org/papers/w6435

"This paper investigates three special tax provisions for not-for-profit (NFP) hospitals. First taxes -- both income and property taxes. Second, they issue tax-exempt bonds so lenders do not pay income taxes on interest received. Third, donors deduct charitable contributions from their income tax bases. The rationale for these policies is that the NFP hospitals provide community benefits, the definition of which is often loosely-specified. The value of capital tax exemptions depends on the capital intensity of NFP hospitals, and for income taxes, the hospitals' profitability. For 1995, the aggregate value of the exemption from income taxes is $4.6 billion; the median hospital receives benefits of 1.8 percent of total assets. For the property tax exemption, we estimate an aggregate value of $1.7 billion. The value of the property tax exemption varies across hospitals depending on state and local tax policies and the hospital asset mix. Tax-exempt bonds and deductible contributions are concentrated among larger hospitals. Only 19.7 percent of NFP hospitals had outstanding tax-exempt debt in 1994. Almost half of existing bond debt could be replaced by using hospital endowments; we calculate an annual aggregate benefit of $354 million from using tax-exempt bonds. For charitable contributions, roughly four percent of hospitals receive 71 percent of the contributions. We estimate that the lost tax revenue from these contributions is $1.1 billion in 1994."