Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Ming]

Which sin is worse? Sodomy or lying?

Both are sins... but BK only persecutes those practicing sodomy... and lesbians who don't even perform sodomy, while not persecuting those that lie. And that's what makes him a bigot.

[Ben Kenobi]

Which sin is worse? Sodomy or lying?

As was put - "That is why a cold, self-righteous prig who goes regularly to church may be far nearer to hell than a prostitute. But, of course, it is better to be neither."

Sin is sin, Dauphin. Saying, "but so and so is a dirry worthless contrite sinner", isn't an argument that will work in the end. What matters is not the sins that were committed, but the response of the heart to the sins. To confess, to repent, to turn away - will lead to forgiveness. To justify, to compare, to hold it back, to celebrate and even - to disassemble, will bring you to hell. One may be a slow path, but you will assuredly reach it should you choose that path.

[Ben Kenobi]

Both are sins... but BK only persecutes those practicing sodomy... and lesbians who don't even perform sodomy, while not persecuting those that lie. And that's what makes him a bigot.

You are still assuming that homosexuality is an unchangeable part of someone. This is contrary to what the Church teaches. A liar can repent, a liar can turn away from lying and his nature is not that of a liar. In asserting that I am a bigot - you are asserting that homosexuality is a fundamental part of a person's nature.

Given that the same is not true of liars, I would argue the contrary. A person is a person. You are Ming. You are not chained to your sins, to your past behavior, to your desires and your likes. If you were you could not truly be redeemed. You can be redeemed, anyone can be redeemed, if they choose to repent of their sins. Their sins are not a core part of their nature.

"Dead to sin, Alive to Christ".

But the majority of gays are not Catholic and don't believe it's a sin. It's not against their religion or beliefs.

Does lying cease to be sinful should one believe it to be righteous? That is my point. Sin is sin - Ming.

They are welcome to their beliefs just like you are. You remember, Freedom of Religion... that thing you claim to support... yet in reality, you only mean freedom for Catholics and nobody else.

A silly complaint directed at a man raised outside of the Church. Repentence is voluntary. It can not and must not be compelled.

But don't cram your religion down the throats of people with different beliefs. To them it's not a sin.

It. Does. Not. Matter. That is what you do not understand, Ming. Lying is a sin - it does not matter what religion you belong to. Stealing is a sin. It does not matter what religion you belong to.

Someone who engages in sin - even if he is not aware that it is a sin - will end up in Hell. We are taught that - Ming. That is why we can not and ought not remain silent.

Their souls are at risk, Ming. Mine was too. If I had not been confronted by my friends, I would be outside of the Church. I never would have found Christ. I owe them a great debt I can never repay.

Do I not owe that courtesy to others?

They are allowed to follow their own beliefs and don't feel they need repentance. They will be saved based on their own beliefs, not yours. That's their right... to believe what they feel in their hearts and soul.

No, Ming - if they choose to persist in sodomy - even if they believe it to not be a sin, they will end up in Hell. They are not going to be 'saved' based on their own beliefs. That is what I mean when I say "sin is sin". It does not change and it is the same for everyone.

[Ming]

BLAH BLAH BLAH

Many people probably believe you will go to hell based on their beliefs... So maybe you should repent.
Again... RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. And not your version where only Catholics are allowed freedom, but real RELIGIUOS FREEDOM.

You denounce your Pope's message of love... and continue to spew hate.
I wonder which message Jesus would support.
I wonder which is really alive to Christ.

Either treat all sinners alike, (which is all men and women) or just discriminate and spew hate toward gays. If it's the latter, then you are a bigot.

[Ben Kenobi]

I have drawn no distinction between lying and between sodomy. That you regard the one belief as righteous and the other belief as bigotry speaks tremendous volumes.

Why do you draw a distinction, Ming?

Many people probably believe you will go to hell based on their beliefs

Sure. I'm a sinner, Ming. I have committed mortal sins. That is what confession is for. I have been forgiven of them.

[Dauphin]

As was put - "That is why a cold, self-righteous prig who goes regularly to church may be far nearer to hell than a prostitute. But, of course, it is better to be neither."

Sin is sin, Dauphin. Saying, "but so and so is a dirry worthless contrite sinner", isn't an argument that will work in the end. What matters is not the sins that were committed, but the response of the heart to the sins. To confess, to repent, to turn away - will lead to forgiveness. To justify, to compare, to hold it back, to celebrate and even - to disassemble, will bring you to hell. One may be a slow path, but you will assuredly reach it should you choose that path.

So, when do you plan to turn away from being a lying bigot?

[Ben Kenobi]

So, when do you plan to turn away from being a lying bigot?

People regard truth as a lie, and lies as the truth. I have no need to repent of truth.

As for bigotry- I do not regard one's sins as a core part of their nature - that one can distinguish between the sinner and his sin. Ergo, I do not have to repent of that either.

Why do you draw a distinction between lying and sodomy, Dauphin? Do you believe one to be sinful and the other not?

[Ming]

I have drawn no distinction between lying and between sodomy. That you regard the one belief as righteous and the other belief as bigotry speaks tremendous volumes.

Do people not make cakes for people that lie? Would you support bakers not to bake cakes for anybody that has sinned and has not yet confessed?
You have drawn a distinction by supporting discrimination against gays.

Sure. I'm a sinner, Ming. I have committed mortal sins. That is what confession is for. I have been forgiven of them.

In the eyes of others not of your faith, you are not forgiven... Your hate earns you a ticket to a bad afterlife unless you atone based on their beliefs.

It's a two way street. Religious freedom is TRUE religious freedom. Most gays aren't sinning based on their own beliefs. They will be welcome in the heaven of their beliefs.

Your Pope is telling you not to judge... show love and compassion... asks that you ask for forgiveness for the wrongs you have done against them.
He never claims that it's not a sin in the eyes of the Catholic Church... but he does ask that you act in a Christian manner...
And for that message of peace and love, you denounce him... WOW!

[kentonio]

I can speak for myself, TYVM. As for my friends, they are great people, just really tired of Francis.

I have read what he has said - insofar as you interpret his words to justify homosexuality - you are very wrong about Francis and about what God believes. That being said, Francis drives many out of the Church who are discouraged by his lack of understanding of Catholic doctrine. Every time that the bishops have corrected him reduces him in the eyes of Catholics - it diminishes his authority.

Most look elsewhere - to our beloved Benedict, and to the other bishops like Cardinal Sarah who preach the faith. As for myself, I have been watching and listening. I was not going to make up my mind on Francis until I had a chance to hear him out and listen to what he had to say, and why. Much of what he has done is counterproductive. Practically every press release I find myself having to answer questions from others who are concerned and confused.

My job is hard enough correcting the misinformation that is already there without Francis adding to it. Do I believe that he cares about folks like me? No, I do not. He would sooner be rid of all of us than actually ask us how we are doing.

WOW. The hubris amongst you and your friends is mindblowing. Would you like to explain why God selected Francis through the papal conclave if he is so unsuitable for the job? Or perhaps you and your spoiled first world fellow 'worshippers' now believe your opinion is more important than gods?

As for your job being 'hard enough' perhaps you should take a mission to Africa and see how hard those Catholic's lives are, before you bleat about your hard life in the richest country on Earth.

[Dauphin]

Why do you draw a distinction between lying and sodomy, Dauphin? Do you believe one to be sinful and the other not?

Given I don't believe in "sin" and don't condemn people to hell for their words or actions your first question is loaded and flawed.

[Dauphin]

BK's most recent posts have caused me to listen to One Hot Minute again, an album which I've not listened to in a long time.




And Californication. One of my favourite songs (even though it's not about that Saviour):

[kentonio]

I do love One Hot Minute.

[Bereta_Eder]

That's the thing.

According to Ben sin is lying and gayism (I made a new word!) is sin.
But he discriminates.
But even if he didn't the problem stands.

You can TRY to live a life without lying. It's impossible. You can hope these are restricted to white lies but that's it.

You can be a dufus and say I am a despicable sinner for telling I was tired when in fact I just didn't want to go.
And then you can say, I'm not going to do it again because St Peter is waiting (and face the consequences)

But gayism is different. Here it is considered a sin to be who you are! This is very insulting. Hence it the church (all churches) are walloing in their own misery.
However if they put forward the message of love they can still attratc the vast majority of sane people.

And they do.

About societies, it depends in which society. Homosexuality could probably get you stoned to death in Israel but noone would even bat an eyelid in athens or rome.

[giblets]

Ben is awfully obsessed with homosexuality

[Giancarlo]

This thread reminds me of that time Ben spent a week insisting that growing up a deaf kid in Canada meant he had it worse than African Americans in the US pre-civil rights. Funny times..

Ben is a lying liar and now he posted out of date figures. Participation actually has gone up the last two years. This idiot thinks after one of the worst recessions since 1929 everything will recover over night. Obama has led this nation with years of strong job growth and that is why his approval rating is 54-57% depending on the poll. Not even Reagan had approval ratings around that at this point. He had a 51% approval rating.