Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Ben Kenobi]

What is this EXTRA tax that we are arguing for? No one here is suggesting that they be taxed for things that others are not.

Are you arguing that all non-profits should be taxed? Or just Christian non profits? That fall afoul of equal protection, but we all know you don't believe that religion is protected under the fourteenth.

[Ben Kenobi]

A soup kitchen is at a specific location ... and can be exempted from property tax.
A church or a scientology mission building also are specific buildings and could be taxed with property tax

Soup kitchen held in the parish basement = no taxation for the entire parish.

[Jon Miller]

Just more fear mongering.
And you're already paying taxes so they've already come for you.
Just more fear mongering.

I am not paying any extra special taxes where I am treated special for my religion.

Unlike in your world where if I value Monet or Pavarotti I am treated in one fashion but if I value Greg Boyd I am treated in another fashion (with much higher taxes).

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

In all my 60 + years I've never seen anybody every turned away from partaking of the eucharist.

Uh. Wow. *EVERY* Parish I've been to has made it clear that only confirmed Catholics in good standing are permitted to partake. This is basic, basic, Catholic doctrine.

Not everything the church does is for charity so why should they be fully exempt. The should get a tax benefit for just their charity work like everybody else.

Do you work for a profit or non-profit organization, rah?

[rah]

6 figure fines for any parish that dares to say that homosexuality is a sin,

fear mongering. Let me know when it actually happens.

On the cake fine, I do think it was excessive. I think a lot of punitive fines are and I've think they've all gotten excessive.
But they're seemingly consistent so I don't think you can say that they were singled out.

[rah]

Uh. Wow. *EVERY* Parish I've been to has made it clear that only confirmed Catholics in good standing are permitted to partake. This is basic, basic, Catholic doctrine.

Typical Ben comment. I never said that. You even posted what I said.

In all my 60 + years I've never seen anybody every turned away from partaking of the eucharist.

Have you ever seen anyone go up during a service and been turned away?

[Ben Kenobi]

Obviously you don't understand

The church tax isn't collected from the church ... but rather it is collected by the state, from church members, for the church.
All church taxes collected are given to the church

I am aware. You need to read up on the Prussian Schools reorganization act.

With other words, it is some kind of state sanctioned membership fee for belonging to one of the churches

Which is why all the Catholic schools were taken over by the Prussian state. This is compensation for what was taken.

I'm actually in favor of removing this altogether, and the restoration of all the Catholic schools that were seized.

[Ben Kenobi]

Have you ever seen anyone go up during a service and been turned away?

Yes I have.

Rah, have you heard the priest come up and say that only Catholics were permitted to take communion? In your 60+ years.

[Ben Kenobi]

On the cake fine, I do think it was excessive. I think a lot of punitive fines are and I've think they've all gotten excessive.
But they're seemingly consistent so I don't think you can say that they were singled out.

Thank you. 6 figures for one cake is excessive, will be struck down. What is amusing is that so-called 'liberals' tried to shut down their fundraising to pay the fine. This is clearly punitive, intended to try to destroy them and their business.

Next up will be confiscation of property for everyone who resists. They won't touch the churches- they'll go after the parishioners until they feel that they can get away with shutting them down altogether.

You laughed when I said everything about homosexual marriage, and everything I said 10 years ago has come true.

[Jon Miller]

None of us have advocated for "extra taxes"... just the same taxes as everybody else pays.
Not at all... fair taxes, not more or extra.

In which case you get the current situation. RELIGIONS DO NOT PAY ANY LESS TAXES THAN ANY OTHER NONPROFIT!

Yet again, nobody is arguing for that at all. Try again.

You all are. Unless you don't really understand how taxation works for non-profits? Religions already may pay taxes on land that is not used for religious purposes (by having an orchard or shops or (in some cases) a restaurant). This depends on the rules regarding charities/etc in the particular state/country.

Gee... marketing and advertising get taxed... why is religion is different?
Yeah... treat them all the same.

Non-profit marketing and advertising do not get taxed. Why should religion be different than other non-profits?

Please quote where any of us have said that. Right now, religions pay NO taxes, yet everybody else and business do. I guess everybody and all business are getting persecuted.

Religions do not pay taxes on their religious activities. They do pay taxes on their non-religious activities, or at least can. There is some argument here (see below).

See http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...ligion/480903/
"
They even cited Pope Francis, pointing to a 2015 statement he made about the Catholic priests and nuns in Europe who said they could not house refugees in nearly empty monasteries and convents because they were renting out empty rooms to tourists. “Well, if that is what you want to do, then pay taxes!” the pope said. “A religious school is tax-exempt because it is religious, but if it is functioning as a hotel, then it should pay taxes just like its neighbor. Otherwise it is not fair business.”
"

All everybody is saying that they should be taxed fairly. Charity work and community work should be exempt from taxes.

So that includes preaching? Because from past comments, I think by you, you do not think so.

I will continue to laugh at Ben and his concerns. It's all simple fear mongering. A discussion on fair taxes for all doesn't validate any of his concerns.

Why should religions get a free ride on taxes? Are you saying that 100% of what they do is charity?
What about Scientology and many of the televangilists. A bunch of rep off artists playing at religion.

Does any non-profit do 100% charity? Not at all. Should it be expected to? No, although there are definite scams/etc and a definite failure mode (see references above).

I suggested mechanisms to rain in abuse. One is to have a special tax for those who lead (or work at) non-profits. This would get rid of the abuse that goes on at all types of non-profits, not just religious ones.

You are singling out religions for special treatment due to a failure that is common for non-profits in general. This is persecution.

JM
(see http://www.nzcpr.com/the-failure-of-...itable-entity/ for example of the same sort of thing that one could complain about (like Francis or I) as a non-religious organisation. Or all of the other stories you can tell.)

[Jon Miller]

Having all charities pay property taxes in some manner is also reasonable.

My serious disagreement is about singling out religion in any special way.

Which I think you agree with me on, you just don't realize that religions currently do not receive special treatment that is different from other non-profits (other than that they get a little less investigation about their behavior because of Bill of Rights).

JM

[rah]

Yes I have.

Rah, have you heard the priest come up and say that only Catholics were permitted to take communion? In your 60+ years.

Of course I've heard it. I went to a catholic school for 8 years and was an alter boy for a few of them (so I witness many many communions). My comment was that I've never seen anyone actually turned away.
People aren't asked for their Catholic ID card while they're standing up there. I've known many non catholics that have gone up just to try the experience.
They were never denied.

Why were they denied in your example and how was it done?

[rah]

Having all charities pay property taxes in some manner is also reasonable.

My serious disagreement is about singling out religion in any special way.

Then there is no real disagreement on my part either.
Minor details maybe, but not in principle.
Some non-profits do pay property taxes.

[Jon Miller]

I have attended Mass a few times. At my friends wedding in Minnesota we were asked to cross our arms for a blessing and I did so. At a Christmas service I attended in Vancouver (BC) I was not asked to do so. I don't remember if I asked for the blessing or partook.

No one checked my ID.

JM

[Ming]

Thank you. 6 figures for one cake is excessive, will be struck down.

Denied on the first appeal... and they haven't even started another appeal. So how is the "will be struck down" going so far.

Next up will be confiscation of property for everyone who resists. They won't touch the churches- they'll go after the parishioners until they feel that they can get away with shutting them down altogether.

Simple fear mongering...

You laughed when I said everything about homosexual marriage, and everything I said 10 years ago has come true.

Please find the quotes and context...
I have no clue what you are talking about. But you are probably just making stuff up again.
Homosexuals are now allowed to get married. If you claimed that fine. If you are talking about the RCC being forced to by the government to marry gays... it hasn't come true.
If you are talking about the RCC being forced to change their stance on gays... it hasn't come true. While you can say that many people think the views of the RCC should be changed, the government isn't forcing anything. Show me the laws where that is happening.

Discrimination is Discrimination. The pope isn't asking people to change their views on homosexual marriages or that homosexual acts are not sinful. But he is being very CHRISTIAN by saying you shouldn't discriminate against gays, and the church owes them an apology for the way the RCC has treated them. There is NOTHING against your so called catechism that is against what he is telling Catholics.

Same with pharmacists dispensing abortifacients. There is a difference between not dispensing aspirin and not dispensing abortifacients and folks seem to pretend that there is no difference between the two to force folks to violate their conscience.

It is the JOB of a pharmacists to dispense legal drugs with those that have script for it. If it against the persons conscience to perform the total job, he has the choice to not be a pharmacist so that he doesn't have to violate his conscience. If he is accepting the job, he has to accept all that goes with it.

When you're in favor of 6 figure fines, and presumably, very soon, 6 figure fines for any parish that dares to say that homosexuality is a sin, we are not far. People are going to choose not to pay. Then we get to see which way the jackboots turn when payment is withheld.

Just making stuff up, and more fearmongering.