Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Jon Miller]

We aren't talking about "Catholic Restaurant" which is already taxed.

JM

[Proteus_MST]

...

Finally, it definitely seems like you are saying that there should be income taxes and not specifically property taxes, as you are talking about specific activities rather than specific places. In order to tax a non-profit (religious or otherwise) with income taxes you would have to to make a special tax that just hits religious institutions (which is pretty much the definition of persecution).

...

A soup kitchen is at a specific location ... and can be exempted from property tax.
A church or a scientology mission building also are specific buildings and could be taxed with property tax

[Ming]

Throughout most of history, the primary action used in religious persecution were extra taxes: treating (a particular) religious goods as unequal to other goods.

None of us have advocated for "extra taxes"... just the same taxes as everybody else pays.

That is exactly what you are all arguing for right here.

Not at all... fair taxes, not more or extra.

You are arguing that certain goods (Mass, for example) are fundamentally different than other goods (food, works of art, etc) and so must be taxed differently (and at a much higher effect rate). This has traditionally been one of the main avenues to persecute a group of people.

Yet again, nobody is arguing for that at all. Try again.

All goods should be treated the same way. (particularly ideological/religious/etc goods)

Gee... marketing and advertising get taxed... why is religion is different?
Yeah... treat them all the same.

Finally, it definitely seems like you are saying that there should be income taxes and not specifically property taxes, as you are talking about specific activities rather than specific places. In order to tax a non-profit (religious or otherwise) with income taxes you would have to to make a special tax that just hits religious institutions (which is pretty much the definition of persecution).

Please quote where any of us have said that. Right now, religions pay NO taxes, yet everybody else and business do. I guess everybody and all business are getting persecuted.

All everybody is saying that they should be taxed fairly. Charity work and community work should be exempt from taxes.

Earlier we all laughed a little at Ben and his concerns. It seems like you really want to validate his concerns and his world image.
JM

I will continue to laugh at Ben and his concerns. It's all simple fear mongering. A discussion on fair taxes for all doesn't validate any of his concerns.

Why should religions get a free ride on taxes? Are you saying that 100% of what they do is charity?
What about Scientology and many of the televangilists. A bunch of rep off artists playing at religion.

[rah]

Throughout most of history, the primary action used in religious persecution were extra taxes: treating (a particular) religious goods as unequal to other goods.

That is exactly what you are all arguing for right here.

What is this EXTRA tax that we are arguing for? No one here is suggesting that they be taxed for things that others are not.

And since the church is non profit I don't see how you can claim that we're saying to tax their profit.
I have no problem if their charitable work is given a monetary value and used as a partial exemption to the property taxes.

You're like ben. If someone suggests that one inch against any religion, you use the argument that it is JUST THE BEGINNING and that we're really trying to eliminate all religion. He uses that "well the church has been persecuted in history" so it justifies whatever argument he's pushing that day. Don't do the same.

x-post.

[giblets]

Religion makes intelligent people say stupid things

[ricketyclik]

First amendment says otherwise. Bakers are allowed to decline work they don't want.

So you're a Catholic, but when you don't agree with the Pope you turn to earthly laws. You pick and choose. Don't pretend to be a real Catholic. You're a hypocrite.

[Ming]

Yeah... it will be a cold day in hell before Ben ever asks gay people for forgiveness for the way he has treated them.
He is a pick and chooser. In Benland, only his opinions are right, and even the head of his faith is wrong if Ben disagrees with him, and the Bible says it so it must be right, as long as it is something he believes in. But all that stuff that sounds silly and can't be defended is not right.

[ricketyclik]

Uh, sacrament of confession?

Doesn't matter, you're a **** and you're going to hell.

[Ben Kenobi]

I assume everyone, or almost everyone, would agree on the first one and the last one. What about the Pope's two words leads you to a specific choice between the ones in the middle?

That is an interesting question. I don't see the issue with 1 and 2. 3, 4 and 5 would all fall afoul of conscience protections for Christians. This is not a terribly difficult question. Same with pharmacists dispensing abortifacients. There is a difference between not dispensing aspirin and not dispensing abortifacients and folks seem to pretend that there is no difference between the two to force folks to violate their conscience.

[Jon Miller]

What is this EXTRA tax that we are arguing for? No one here is suggesting that they be taxed for things that others are not.

And since the church is non profit I don't see how you can claim that we're saying to tax their profit.
I have no problem if their charitable work is given a monetary value and used as a partial exemption to the property taxes.

You're like ben. If someone suggests that one inch against any religion, you use the argument that it is JUST THE BEGINNING and that we're really trying to eliminate all religion. He uses that "well the church has been persecuted in history" so it justifies whatever argument he's pushing that day. Don't do the same.

x-post.

It is an extra tax if you say that one class of goods gets one tax and another class of goods gets another tax. That is the full point of 'sin' taxes like on alcohol or gasoline.

The issue is that you classify food or a painting as one type of good that gets one tax and preaching as another another type of good that gets another tax.

If you said 'property taxes for all, based on market rates' then I wouldn't be up in arms over this. But you in essence are saying 'property taxes for religions (probably based on inflated rates, based upon past discussions), and no property taxes for other activities that are just the same but with different goods'.

JM
(Note, however, that museums and churches and so on of the Catholic sort don't have any reasonable market. I guess I should be cheering as I am actually anti-Catholic Church and denominations that I favor do not generally have this problem, but it is more important that I stand up for what is right)

(First they came for the Catholics, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Catholic.
Then they came for the Muslims, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Muslim.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.)

[Ben Kenobi]

Doesn't matter, you're a **** and you're going to hell.

Matters quite a bit actually. But we all know you don't believe in hell, so your statement has no force.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yeah... it will be a cold day in hell before Ben ever asks gay people for forgiveness for the way he has treated them.

Absolutely, it will be a cold day in hell, before I apologize for upholding what the Catechism teaches on homosexuality and what the Catechism teaches on marriage.

He is a pick and chooser. In Benland, only his opinions are right

I wrote the catechism? LOL. No, Ming. It is you who picks and chooses. You don't like what the Catholic church teaches on marriage, on abortion, on pretty much everything. So you say, "I am Catholic" and then spend hours telling us all how much you hate the Church.

Why don't you just leave?

, and even the head of his faith is wrong if Ben disagrees with him

When Francis disagrees with the Catechism, yes, Francis is wrong.

, and the Bible says it so it must be right, as long as it is something he believes in. But all that stuff that sounds silly and can't be defended is not right.

Funny how Ming cannot even use the word "catechism". Call me when you honestly get my argument right.

[rah]

(First they came for the Catholics, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Catholic.
Then they came for the Muslims, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Muslim.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.)

Just more fear mongering.
And you're already paying taxes so they've already come for you.
Just more fear mongering.

[Ben Kenobi]

So you're a Catholic, but when you don't agree with the Pope you turn to earthly laws. You pick and choose. Don't pretend to be a real Catholic. You're a hypocrite.

One, you're assuming that I see the Constitution as a product of *earthly* laws. I do not. I see the constitution as a product of the Divine Law, of Natural Law. Insofar as the constitution protects freedoms of association the Constitution is protecting our natural rights.

Two, you're also assuming that I see Francis' statement as a product of Divine Law, of the catechism of what the Catholic church teaches. So I am left with a decision. On one side, you have the constitution, the catechism, every pope before Francis and natural law. On the other side you have Francis and all the seculars since 1960. Who is right? I know which side I'm on and I don't need Francis to tell me so.

Francis needs to get in line with the magisterium.

[Ben Kenobi]

And you're already paying taxes so they've already come for you.
Just more fear mongering.

When you're in favor of 6 figure fines, and presumably, very soon, 6 figure fines for any parish that dares to say that homosexuality is a sin, we are not far. People are going to choose not to pay. Then we get to see which way the jackboots turn when payment is withheld.