Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Ben Kenobi]

The existence of a global flood (with someone rescuing one pair of every species by building a huge ship)

The flood does not have to be global in order to explain the Noahide account. A flood over much of the near east would qualify. There has been considerable speculation as to where and when, and some geological possibilities. If the author of Genesis were Abraham, what parts of the world would he know existed? Would he know about South America?

And of course, that assumes that Abraham wrote that portion of Genesis. I don't see a reason to assume that given that the account had to be recorded long before the time of Abraham.

Two, given the existence of a snowball earth, it is not beyond the geological possibilities to have a worldwide flood.

Personally I'm a fan of the limited, near-eastern Flood. Which also fixes a few other problems...

The 2 accounts of genesis about the creation of earth and mankind/life

Ok. The account is not from a firsthand observer. The account is a recording of a vision. Who received the vision of Creation, the bible does not say. Visions do not have to be complete, chronological, or even symmetrical time. "The first day" could be the first day of the vision - the first period of time that they perceived, divided by another 'day', perforth. As a summary of the process of creation? I can go with it. As a comprehensive step by step account? No. That would take far longer to lay out than a chapter or two.

Individuals who, according to the bible, lived for several centuries

One, you're assuming that the chronology and the segment is complete. I am not sure that it is.

[Ben Kenobi]

There are some common ideologies that need to be taught in order for a western multicultural society to exist.

Agreed. One of them is traditional marriage.

One of them is respect for other ways of living (including other religions, other sexualities, other cultures and so on)

Freedom of religion and association permits homeschooling.

... there are also others, for example that you shouldn't beat women, that female family members are free to follow their own path and aren't property of their families ... that honour killings aren't O.K. ... and so on

What is happening is that you are getting Sharia law in parts of Germany, where sharia prevails over western jurisprudence. This is why #Brexit happened and why western society as a whole is going to have to make a quick choice. If Sharia prevails, you are not going to have a 'western civilization' to work with.

Personally, I'd rather try saving it. Jettisoning Christianity will weaken Western Society, not Christianity. Christianity is not dependent on Western society, it predates some of the classical era, but grew up alongside it. That it is intertwined is a product of the last 1500 years of culture.

Tearing them apart again isn't going to lead to a prosperous culture sans Christianity. You'll end up with Christianity and Sharia... if you're lucky.

If you're unlucky, welcome to Syria.

Why should giving catholic pupils insight into other faiths endanger the catholic faith?

You're not teaching that the Catholic church has the fullness of Truth. Ergo, you're not actually teaching Catholicism to anybody. You're teaching secular humanism and cultural relativism.

The existence of other faiths (christian and well as non christian) is a reality ... and by giving the pupils one year (out of 9-12 years) where they are taught about other faiths, helps not only them (by making them more tolerant of other faiths) but also society as a whole (for the same reason).

You're insisting that everyone be taught *every* faith because you believe in cultural relativism. This is contrary to what the Catholic church actually teaches.

Is your faith in the catholic church so small, that you think, devoting 10% (of their total religious lessons at school) into basic insights of other faiths, will turn them into apostates?

You're asking a convert that question? I have had your full-on secular education. Again, however I was taught real atheism AND real Catholicism. Not watered down Catholicism and real atheism.

Sure, at one time people believed, that live (especially flies) can automatically be created by letting dung stand for a few days.

Science hasn't changed, Proteus. If Louis Pasteur could still contribute to biological sciences then there's no reason why any other Christian could also not contribute to biological sciences.

Nowadays we know, that life doesn't automatically get created in dung, but rather flies lay< their eggs into dung.

Thanks to Louis Pasteur.

Much knowledge of the past isn't valid today anymore.

Are you arguing that pasteurization isn't valid?

I don't see any reason why my respect for Mr. Pasteurs discoveries with regards to microbiology and medicine should make me turn a blind eye on any false beliefs he might have had.

It means that, contrary to your assertion, one can be a good scientist and a good Christian.

The german bishops don't depend on the state.

Yes, they are dependent in that the state pays them and not their parishioners. It was a clever, very clever idea by Bismarck. I respect the man for his cunning insight.

Which is, why Bishop Tebartz con Elst from the rather poor bishopry Limburg was able to devote most of the money he got from his sheep into leading a life in luxuiry.
And when his abuse was too much for his sheep to carry (and his sheep wrote to the pope) everything was handled by the catholic church itself, with no involvement of the german state

Cardinal Marx, et al still retain their sinecures.

[Berzerker]

The flood does not have to be global in order to explain the Noahide account. A flood over much of the near east would qualify.

Bible says the Flood covered the tallest mountains and the Ark came to rest on Mt Ararat

given the existence of a snowball earth, it is not beyond the geological possibilities to have a worldwide flood.

Ice covering an ocean doesn't make water covering the world possible...where did the water go?

The account is not from a firsthand observer. The account is a recording of a vision. Who received the vision of Creation, the bible does not say.

Genesis doesn't mention any vision

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben you can say whatever you want. It doesn't excuse not respecting your friends.

He taught me piano. Why would he do that if he felt I didn't respect him? I helped him with his Chemistry. He passed his chemistry and I still play to this day.

No I'm arguing that you should apologize for opposing a friends marriage. (civil, not religious)

Who said he got married, rah?

I can't wait to hear what you've told your black friends.

"Hey Maria, come see this!"

"LMFAO"

You are the scum of the earth pretending you actually care about people.

"LMFAO! Now I see why you post here. That was awesome!"

[Berzerker]

Freedom of religion and association permits homeschooling

But not gay marriage? Gays subsidize your Church with taxes and then your Church cries about religious freedom while imposing its religion on gays... The stench of hypocrisy would repel starving vultures.

[Jon Miller]

Psychology has its problems, certainly, most of which have been pointed out by working psychologists. If you think that means you can dismiss out of hand any result that runs contrary to your ideology/personal experiences, then I am (a) sad and (b) not at all interested in having a conversation with you.

I dismiss any result (Contrary or not) if it isn't (a) obviously independent of the culture of the test subjects or (b) includes test subjects of a spectrum of cultures/etc and includes proper statistical techniques.

If they wanted to be treated like scientists in the hard scientists than they need to do work at the appropriate level.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

Bible says the Flood covered the tallest mountains and the Ark came to rest on Mt Ararat

Mount Ararat was particularly tall... in the near east. Why Ararat and not someplace else?

Ice covering an ocean doesn't make water covering the world possible...where did the water go?

Ice is water. It has to melt at some point.

Genesis doesn't mention any vision

"And the Lord God said"

The one receiving the genesis account wasn't there at the beginning of Creation.

[Ben Kenobi]

But not gay marriage? Gays subsidize your Church with taxes and then your Church cries about religious freedom while imposing its religion on gays... The stench of hypocrisy would repel starving vultures.

You can't suddenly toss aside 2000 years of western culture and then argue that you're defending Western Culture. Traditional marriage is a core part of western culture, like trial by jury and habeaus Corpus.

[Lorizael]

I dismiss any result (Contrary or not) if it isn't (a) obviously independent of the culture of the test subjects or (b) includes test subjects of a spectrum of cultures/etc and includes proper statistical techniques.

I didn't cite any particular research, but you dismissed what I said out of hand. That suggests you're lying to yourself about what you do and do not choose to dismiss. There's a wealth of psychological research (on cognitive biases) explaining why you might do that...

[Berzerker]

Mount Ararat was particularly tall... in the near east. Why Ararat and not someplace else?

Cuz thats where the ark was when Ararat became exposed, if it was a couple thousand miles to the east it might have come to rest in the Himalayas

Ice is water. It has to melt at some point.

and when it does it drains into basins... Its possible for most of the world to be under ice, not water

"And the Lord God said"

The one receiving the genesis account wasn't there at the beginning of Creation.

Was the one offering the account there?

You can't suddenly toss aside 2000 years of western culture and then argue that you're defending Western Culture. Traditional marriage is a core part of western culture, like trial by jury and habeaus Corpus.

Religious freedom is not...

You think religious freedom gives your Church the freedom to deny others marriage rights while warning us about sharia law

Can your Church have gays executed too in the name of religious freedom?

[Ben Kenobi]

You think religious freedom gives your Church the freedom to deny others marriage rights while warning us about sharia law

You're either for western society or not. Arguing that traditional marriage isn't a part of western society makes no sense to me. They are all a part of English Common law. The argument goes along the lines that the belief of the fundamental equality of men and women stems from the law on marriage permitting each husband to have one wife and each wife her own husband.

[Berzerker]

You're either for western society or not.

You believe the rest of us are morally obliged to follow your rules because "God" gave them to you. So you support the baker's freedom of religion but not the gays getting married. They dont get religious freedom in your book of rules, I'm surprised you're not telling us they should still be jailed in Texas...or worse. Was God's punishment for gays limited to denying them marriage rights? What does your book of rules say about that? Are you following the rules?

Arguing that traditional marriage isn't a part of western society makes no sense to me.

Then why did you make that argument? Am I required to support slavery because western society embraced it for so long? Religious freedom is the goal, not repeating 2000 years of sin.

[Elok]

What rah said? -For infection read social contact.

The kids getting home schooled strongly tend to be the last children who ought to be raised unsocialized, given the type of people who tend to inflict that on their children - Elok, you are a nerd, and your kids probably will be, too, for all that I think the world could use more of your kind of thoughtful nerd; I don't think limiting their social contact growing up is a good idea at all, even in favor of only hanging out with Ben the rest of their lives, which is a major part of what you get in the social conservative subculture. Dunno what you actually plan to do - just for example.

Nobody knows a lot better than I the violence of public schools, or the total lack of competence on the part of the mediocre at best intellects who tend to make a career of teaching to deal with a wiseacre kid who's smarter than them - but the smart play would still be to send my kids to real schools to make them better-rounded than I, being careful to take responsibility when they get home to subvert teachings/values I disagree with, encourage them to read and think for themselves, etc. -Raising them in a bubble and pretending the homeschool soccer league twice a week is any substitute for the daily social rough-and-tumble of the company of all walks is preparing them for functioning in real life?

-Pshaw. Makes as much sense as saddling them with pretentiously retarded names and claiming THAT isn't child abuse, either.

Buncle, I was TAG/Gifted. I didn't get exposed to kids from all walks of life; for basically all of my schooling until college, I shared classes with a small set of other small kids, mostly white and upper-middle class. Many of the kids in my classes senior year had been in my second grade class, and a lot of the ones who weren't were only different due to moving or the consolidation that happens in a public school system, with multiple middle schools "feeding" into a single high school. The same story appears to be true for gifted kids today; there's just not any other practical way to handle smart kids besides in one big block.

Moreover, the modern value of "diversity" is not particularly diverse in any meaningful sense; it means one person in the group is black, one is gay, one's hispanic, and maybe one is disabled, but if they know what's good for them they all believe and say much the same thing, same as in any other group. This is particularly true in middle and high school. I remember my middle school years as the worst of my life, largely because of what I went through at school, and high school as only better because I tended to be ignored rather than actively targeted for abuse.

Finally, there is the matter that my perfectly respectable, if unremarkable, modern education utterly failed to prepare me for life. I'm not just talking about my English major, though that is a factor. America, at least--possibly Europe too, I don't know--has erred by extending childhood not only into adolescence but well past it. When I graduated college in 2007, I was not in any way, shape or form prepared to function as an adult. I had no job skills, no practical knowledge of life, and a general sense that things would be sorted for me without special effort on my part. I was a twenty-four-year-old child. That's absurd.

And statistics seem to indicate that I'm not alone. Something like a third of my generation is living with Mom and Dad well after college. My first priority, after protecting my children from outright scarring, needs to be to make my boys into men. I have no faith whatever that the modern education system will do it. Every year we make more and more of a cult of victimhood, pathology, and entitlement (I think this is ultimately rooted in the errors of the Enlightenment in reorienting morality around the individual, but that's a whole other thread right there). For example, these ****ing nutters. There's this whole organization (astonishingly, it's headquartered in San Francisco) which tours the country doing six-hour sessions in secondary school gyms, essentially having a big teary-eyed group hug. I'll take my chances with the fundies. This crap is only going to get more and more mainstream.

I'd say more, but this is going to be a bloated post already.

[Ming]

The Catholic Church says marriage is between a man and a woman.
Some Religions say it's ok for same sex couples to get married.

Religious freedom says you are welcome to practice your religion.

So let the other religions practice theirs.
Or is only your religion allowed freedom.

Come on BK, answer the question.

[Proteus_MST]

Agreed. One of them is traditional marriage.



Freedom of religion and association permits homeschooling.

You can teach your kid at home everything you want, even in germany.
But homeschooling doesn't satisfy the compulsory school attendance that exists by law ... and that goes till the age of 16.
Also homeschooling doesn't satisfy the requirements for getting a grade according to the german school system.

Also, noone in germany wants to abolish the traditional marriage between a man and a woman. Even if homosexual marriages are introduced, heterosexual couples will still be allowed to marry as well.

Similarly noone will force the catholic church to perform homosexual marriages ... they will solely performed by the state (and churches who voluntarily allow such marriages in their parishes)

What is happening is that you are getting Sharia law in parts of Germany, where sharia prevails over western jurisprudence. This is why #Brexit happened and why western society as a whole is going to have to make a quick choice. If Sharia prevails, you are not going to have a 'western civilization' to work with.

While I cited a lot of things happening in some muslim family, others aren't. DOmestic violence (i.e. beating of the wife by the husband) also happens in christian families ... and trying to control the life of the own daughter even when she is older than 18 also isn't muslim exclusive

Aside from this ... I could also have mentioned other things that are bad for society (and might promoted in families who only homeschool) ...
for example the view of the Aryan race being superior over other races ... or the view that jews and blacks and disabled people should be killed or put into camps ... or the view that the holocaust was a lie by the allies ... and many more

You're not teaching that the Catholic church has the fullness of Truth. Ergo, you're not actually teaching Catholicism to anybody. You're teaching secular humanism and cultural relativism.

You're insisting that everyone be taught *every* faith because you believe in cultural relativism. This is contrary to what the Catholic church actually teaches.

The catholic church is free to teach their kids everything it wants, outside of school.
And AFAIK this is done ... Confirmands in german mainstream evangelical churches have a period of 2 years (prior to their confirmation) where they have to go to the confirmand school 2 afternoons a week (and get lessons about the christian religion by the local pastor of the parish). In the end they also have to pass some tests about basic bible knowledge, before they are allowed to attend to confirmation

AFAIK the catholics in germany have something similar with their kids before communion.
Therefore the catholic church has every opportunity (outside of school) to influence the kids minds (outside of school)

Science hasn't changed, Proteus. If Louis Pasteur could still contribute to biological sciences then there's no reason why any other Christian could also not contribute to biological sciences.

Wrong ... science changes ... not only with regards to theories, but also with regards to its methodology.
In the medieval times, for example, science was rather asystematic ... whereas nowadays scientific methodology is much better, with the requirement for peer reviews (before publication of articles in renowned magazines), much more competition (meaning older theories get reviewed more often), the requirement for the repeatability of experiments (by other scientific groups in the world) and also better networking of scientists, especially thanks to the internet.

Science also has changed between the 19th century and the 21st one, as well as (by a great deal) our knowledge of the world

It means that, contrary to your assertion, one can be a good scientist and a good Christian.

I don't dispute that there are christian scientists.
But usually they resolve the dilemma (between the contents of the bible and science) by cherrypicking from the bible and only taking those parts of the bible for true, that don't disagree with science and nowadays morals.
Which is exactly what fundamentalist christians accuse mainstream christians of (who on the other hand do cherrypicking themselves ).

I for my part have come to the conclusion that the fundamentalist christians are right ... which is why I cannot call myself a christian anymore ...
because I can neither accept certain biblical stories as true, nor can I accept a god who commands atrocities, punishes innocent people for things other people have done and also hands out death penalties to people who did nothing else than question the style of management by their leader.

Yes, they are dependent in that the state pays them and not their parishioners. It was a clever, very clever idea by Bismarck. I respect the man for his cunning insight.

The german law actually gives churches/parishes the right to collect the church taxes by themselves.
This actually might even be cheaper for the catholic church, as they have to pay money to the taxation agency, in order to have it collect the church taxes (instead of taxing it themselves). The catholic church obviously chose the more convenient method

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax#Germany

Cardinal Marx, et al still retain their sinecures.

I don't know of this Cardinal Marx.
But why shouldn't he still hold his office, if he didn't waste as much money as Tebartz, in a parish as poor as Limburg, so that noone in the parish complained about him?