So how long will Ben last this time?

[Kidlicious]

Why do you think I became Catholic in the first place? We *were* Catholic.

You were also cavemen.

[Proteus_MST]

You were also cavemen.

And believers in the nordic pantheon of the Æsir, with gods like Þor, Oðin or Freya ...
at the time, when germany still was ruled by germanic tribes

[Kidlicious]

And believers in the nordic pantheon of the Æsir, with gods like Þor, Oðin or Freya ...
at the time, when germany still was ruled by germanic tribes

BK worshiped animal gods.

[The Mad Monk]

I don´t see how I would need to cite anything for this.
The christian faith is built around the belief that Jesus is god himself.
That Jesus therefore for a christian should be the highest authority ... far higher than any priest that came after him stands out of question ...
and that therefore anything that twists the words of Jesus arouind (or falsely interprets them) detracts from the christian religion for me also doesn´t need any explanation.
(also if books get chosen to be left out of the bible for wrong reasons (for example if they actually contain teachings of Jesus, but get left out, because their teachings don´t fit the line the church wants to proceed ... or if books get put into the bible (despite doubts of their veracity) because they support certain opinions by church fathers)

Reminds me of Erasmus:

I only wish, my dear Dorp, that there were fewer of them guilty of this charge. I could show you some who've passed their eightieth year and wasted so much of their life in nonsense like this that they've never even opened the gospels. I discovered this for myself and in the end they admitted it. And even in the character of Folly I didn't dare to say what I often hear the theologians themselves deplore, and here I mean true theologians, that is, honest, serious and learned scholars who have drunk deeply of the teaching of Christ at its very source. Whenever they are among people with whom they can give free voice to their thoughts they deplore the new kind of theology which has come into the world and regret the passing of the old one, which was so much more holy and sacred and so well able to reflect and recall the heavenly teachings of Christ. But quite apart from the baseness and monstrosity, the barbarity and artificiality of its vocabulary, its total unawareness of liberal studies and ignorance of languages, this new-fangled theology is so adulterated by Aristotle, by petty human inventions and profane regulations, that I doubt if it knows anything of the genuine, pure Christ. (11) For in fixing its eyes too firmly on man-made instruction it loses sight of the archetype. Consequently the more prudent theologians are often obliged to speak differently in public from what they think in their hearts or say to their close friends, and there are times when they are uncertain what answer to give those who consult them, realizing that Christ taught one thing and man's inherited teaching prescribes another. What, I ask you, has Christ to do with Aristotle, or the mysteries of eternal wisdom with subtle sophistry? What purpose is served by that maze of debatable issues, so many of which are a waste of time or a noxious evil, if only because of the strife and dissension they create? Some points need elucidating and some decisions have to be taken, I don't deny, but on the other hand there are a great many questions which are better ignored than investigated, seeing that part of our knowledge lies in accepting that there are some things we cannot know, and a great many more where uncertainty is more beneficial than a firm standpoint. Finally, where there has to be a decision, I should like to see it taken with reverence, not with a feeling of superiority, and in accordance with the holy scriptures, not the fabrications of men's petty minds. Today there's no end to futile investigations which are the root of all the discord between sect and party, and every day one pronouncement leads to another. In short, we have come to the point when the basis of the issue involved rests not so much on Christ's teaching as on the schoolmen's definitions and the power of the bishops, such as they are. Consequently everything is now so complicated that there is not even a hope of recalling the world to true Christianity.

-- Letter to Maarten van Dorp, 1515

[Ben Kenobi]

The problem with the protestant argument is that it ignores 11 centuries of history. What does Aristotelianism have to do with Christianity? Is there a better explanation for what happens during the mass? I've never heard one. The reason that protestants refuse to discuss the question is that they really don't believe in the Divine Presence of God.

[Kidlicious]

The problem with the protestant argument is that it ignores 11 centuries of history. What does Aristotelianism have to do with Christianity? Is there a better explanation for what happens during the mass? I've never heard one. The reason that protestants refuse to discuss the question is that they really don't believe in the Divine Presence of God.

Huh? You're the one who doesn't believe in transcendence.

[Ben Kenobi]

Huh? You're the one who doesn't believe in transcendence

Not the hippy dippy 60s version of it, no. But I do believe that God's teachings are equally applicable today as in the 1st century and are not dependent on a people or a time or a culture. That rather that there is a specific Catholic culture that has replaced it.

I find it amusing that you consider Catholicism the equivalent of being a caveman.

As for me, I'm referring to the doctrine of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation. These do use Aristotelianism in order to understand the distinction between substance and accidents. Something btw that we still teach in Chemistry today.

[Kidlicious]

Not the hippy dippy 60s version of it, no. But I do believe that God's teachings are equally applicable today as in the 1st century and are not dependent on a people or a time or a culture. That rather that there is a specific Catholic culture that has replaced it.

I find it amusing that you consider Catholicism the equivalent of being a caveman.

As for me, I'm referring to the doctrine of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation. These do use Aristotelianism in order to understand the distinction between substance and accidents. Something btw that we still teach in Chemistry today.

But saying Christ is present in the Eucharist is saying that he is not present all of the time. He is present all of the time. As the song goes, "his eye is on the sparrow, and I know he watches me."

[Ben Kenobi]

But saying Christ is present in the Eucharist is saying that he is not present all of the time. He is present all of the time. As the song goes, "his eye is on the sparrow, and I know he watches me."

Uh, no. Just no. That's like saying that because Christ was crucified that he is not present all of the time.

[Kidlicious]

Uh, no. Just no. That's like saying that because Christ was crucified that he is not present all of the time.

It's not like that at all.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, you'll have to explain it. I was a prot and I don't understand your reasoning.

[Kidlicious]

Well, you'll have to explain it. I was a prot and I don't understand your reasoning.

"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.… (John 12:32)

He draws us unto Himself. All you have to do is become.

[Ben Kenobi]

Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.… (John 12:32)

He draws us unto Himself. All you have to do is become.

Ok, I still don't understand how that's a refutation of the doctrine of the Real presence.

[Kidlicious]

Ok, I still don't understand how that's a refutation of the doctrine of the Real presence.

Doctrine is doctrine. The Word is the Word. He draws all men unto Himself, not just those who take the Eucharist.

[-Jrabbit]

Haven't visited this thread in a couple weeks.

Thrilled to see it has devolved into Ben and Kid discussing/lecturing each other on logic, history, and religion.
Priceless stuff!