So how long will Ben last this time?

[Ben Kenobi]

Why?

My observations of science and the history of science seem to suggest that a balanced perspective is the correct approach. Whether it is 6 or 9 of 12, I do not know. But I do believe that we have already acquired universal truths.

[Kidlicious]

As a process of how ideas come about it is not a bad one, but it has it's limitations. Synthesis is not always more correct than the constituent parts. Sometimes truth changes are revolutionary, in which neither the thesis or it's antithesis is correct. Examples abound, probably the most recent is the advent of Quantum mechanics. Sometimes the truth is best not subsumed in the process, and we have to go back. Inquiry is not always directly progressive. Errors abound in correction and must be eradicated as well. Sometimes it is best to go to the older understanding, which the dialectic does not do well.

You haven't answered the question. What good ideas do we have because of Hegel? What good ideas are dominant today that are closer to absolute truth, or are absolute truth that people didn't have 2,000 years ago?

Also, how do you know which ideas that have run out of fashion to believe in because you have studied history?

The biggest problem however is the materialist approach. I found Platonic forms to be far more compelling - the idea that there are no new ideas, but rather forms which have always existed. Insofar as the only thing which changes is our perception, not the ideas in and of themselves, and that the errors are found through our imperfect understanding of these forms. Hegel has a grindstone which polishes and shapes. This is more akin to wearing glasses.

Ok, so you believe in Plato's philosophy and he lived a very long time ago. So what good is all of the history since then?

[Kidlicious]

My observations of science and the history of science seem to suggest that a balanced perspective is the correct approach. Whether it is 6 or 9 of 12, I do not know. But I do believe that we have already acquired universal truths.

Please explain to me how dialectical reasoning eliminates good ideas.

[Ben Kenobi]

You haven't answered the question. What good ideas do we have because of Hegel?

I'm the wrong person to ask because of my philosophical tradition as a Neo-Platonist. For me, there hasn't really been a significant and compelling philosophy since von Ranke's empiricism as applied to History. Hegel has nothing significant, IMO.

What good ideas are dominant today that are closer to absolute truth, or are absolute truth that people didn't have 2,000 years ago?

Empiricism of Bacon, Locke and Hobbes.

Also, how do you know which ideas that have run out of fashion to believe in because you have studied history?

Because I study the history of philosophy and the history of science.

[Ben Kenobi]

Please explain to me how dialectical reasoning eliminates good ideas.

In an example? Uh, I would go with mendelian inheritance. For 35 years it contributed nothing because the biology of the time did not understand it. Thankfully it was not lost. There are many such examples. Cavendish's discovery of thermodynamics, which was lost.

[Kidlicious]

I'm the wrong person to ask because of my philosophical tradition as a Neo-Platonist. For me, there hasn't really been a significant and compelling philosophy since von Ranke's empiricism as applied to History. Hegel has nothing significant, IMO.

So what absolute truth do we know because of von Ranke?

Empiricism of Bacon, Locke and Hobbes.

Empiricism is an absolute truth? Are you sure about that?

Empiricism: the theory that all knowledge is derived from sense-experience.

Still sure about that?

Because I study the history of philosophy and the history of science.

Well so did Hegel. He was a pretty smart guy too. He also has a ****e load of followers.

[Ben Kenobi]

So what absolute truth do we know because of von Ranke?

Well, his theory of the primacy of primary historical sources is still dominant today. We are taught exactly what he taught about the nature of source materials. Uh, probably the most enlightening would be the architectural digs in the Valley of the Kings. You might as well cite every historical discovery since 1875 as partially due to him.

Empiricism? Absolutely, at least within the realm of natural sciences.

If you're talking theologically, well that brings in folks like Aquinas. I'm not sure if there's really anything newer than Aquinas that has had a significant positive impact.

Yes Hegel has quite a few followers. I'm not one of them. If you want to get technical, a modified dialectic works just fine if one understands it's limitations. But then, I guess my point is that if you modify the dialectic, then it's not really Hegel anymore. The platonic forms are more compelling, like I said, that man is discovering what was always there.

[Kidlicious]

Well, his theory of the primacy of primary historical sources is still dominant today. We are taught exactly what he taught about the nature of source materials. Uh, probably the most enlightening would be the architectural digs in the Valley of the Kings. You might as well cite every historical discovery since 1875 as partially due to him.

Empiricism? Absolutely, at least within the realm of natural sciences.

If you're talking theologically, well that brings in folks like Aquinas. I'm not sure if there's really anything newer than Aquinas that has had a significant positive impact.

Yes Hegel has quite a few followers. I'm not one of them. If you want to get technical, a modified dialectic works just fine if one understands it's limitations. But then, I guess my point is that if you modify the dialectic, then it's not really Hegel anymore. The platonic forms are more compelling, like I said, that man is discovering what was always there.

None of that has anything to do with human consciousness, which is what we were talking about. I didn't mean to say that studying history is not beneficial to society. I wasn't arguing against scientific history. You said that I need to study history to 'know who I am.'

[Ben Kenobi]

None of that has anything to do with human consciousness, which is what we were talking about. I didn't mean to say that studying history is not beneficial to society. I wasn't arguing against scientific history. You said that I need to study history to 'know who I am.'

Yes, because I believe that culture, families and history and traditions are all intertwined. If I want to know something about Kidicious, I ask where you are from, your story. If you don't know where you have come from, your culture and your history you won't know your identity, as a person.

[Kidlicious]

Yes, because I believe that culture, families and history and traditions are all intertwined. If I want to know something about Kidicious, I ask where you are from, your story. If you don't know where you have come from, your culture and your history you won't know your identity, as a person.

Do you not believe in transcendence at all?

[Ben Kenobi]

Do you not believe in transcendence at all?

I'm not sure what you mean by that? You'll have to clarify.

[Kidlicious]

I'm not sure what you mean by that? You'll have to clarify.

People don't have to conform to their surroundings. They are free to make their own choices for themselves. Existence precedes essence.

[Ben Kenobi]

People don't have to conform to their surroundings. They are free to make their own choices for themselves. Existence precedes essence.

Given as I'm a Catholic conservative of a family neither Catholic nor conservative, no, I don't believe in transcendence. I think it's a modern fable that makes people very unhappy.

[Kidlicious]

Given as I'm a Catholic conservative of a family neither Catholic nor conservative, no, I don't believe in transcendence. I think it's a modern fable that makes people very unhappy.

You just contradicted yourself. The example of yourself proves your theory wrong. Being a Catholic must not be who you really are since your family did not teach you to be Catholic.

[Ben Kenobi]

You just contradicted yourself. The example of yourself proves your theory wrong. Being a Catholic must not be who you really are since your family did not teach you to be Catholic.

Why do you think I became Catholic in the first place? We *were* Catholic.