Irish Marriage Equality Referendum Draws Near

[ZEE]

Ben KenoBi that is the moast sexist thing I have ever seen in my life, and don't try to aPologize as I have already rePorted your ass to DanQ.

He should Be resPonding in a cKouPle of days so you Better just turn off your cKomPuter now.

[loinburger]

Never argued that. I'm arguing that sex is an essential component of marriage.

According to Catholic doctrine. However, we don't live in a Catholic theocracy, so the Catholic definition of marriage is not the relevant one. What you really ought to be doing is lobbying for the state to no longer grant marriages to anybody - keep marriage a purely religious ceremony with a purely religious definition.

I'm arguing that the two involve significant obligations and responsibilities.

The obligations and responsibilities associated with sex are not the same as the obligations and responsibilities associated with marriage, hence their ages of consent need not necessarily be the same.

You do this quite often. If the argument is that "sex is a integral part of marriage", presumably the counter argument would be, "would the Catholic church annul a marriage where husband and wife do not have sex? Yes.

Question asked, question answered.

This is false. The husband and wife need only have sex once - after that, the church would not annul the marriage even if they never have sex again. Because sex is not as important to marriage as you seem to think - that's like saying that marriage is all about the couples' wedding vows (what's the difference between a marriage and a non-marriage? The wedding vows, duh!), which also only need to occur once (although some couples do renew them).

Two Common Misinterpretations

It’s important to remember that what I described above does not mean the following:

1. If a person becomes impotent during his marriage the marriage is now invalid. As long as the marriage was consummated at some point prior to the impotence, the marriage is not rendered null. Impotence must be antecedent and perpetual in order to be an impediment.

2. If someone is infertile they can’t get married. Impotence refers to the inability to have sexual intercourse while infertility or sterility refers to the inability to procreate. For example, a healthy woman who has a hysterectomy is infertile but not impotent. In contrast, a woman who has a vagina that cannot accommodate the male member is impotent but she may still be able to become pregnant through illicit means like artificial insemination or IVF. This means she is not infertile even though she is impotent.

[giblets]

Did Mary have sex with Joseph?

Did Ben answer this? Since the Bible says they married (Matthew 1:24) and Ben says sex is an essential component of marriage, surely they had sex at least once in their lifetime.

[loinburger]

Did Ben answer this? Since the Bible says they married (Matthew 1:24) and Ben says sex is an essential component of marriage, surely they had sex at least once in their lifetime.

Canon law says that unconsummated marriages are still valid, and further that "The essential properties of marriage are unity and indissolubility" (no mention of sex as an essential property of marriage). In other words, Mary's and Joseph's marriage was valid even though it was never (officially ) consummated.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Biblical pedant note- Jesus had siblings.

[Thoth]

Biblical pedant note- Jesus had siblings.

Jesus' brother Bob.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Biblical pedant note- Jesus had siblings.

Not according to the Catholics and Orthodox. Just accept that they believe this (you don't have to agree with it) or else we're going to have Ben write 5 million posts on this topic.

[loinburger]

"Saying that Jesus had siblings is like saying that you can make a burrito out of chicken"
"That doesn't make any sense"
"Oh yeah? Well prove that you can make a burrito out of chicken then!"
"No, that's stupid and you're stupid"
"Well then that proves that Jesus didn't have siblings"
"Okay fine, here is a chicken burrito recipe"
"I meant a whole chicken - I don't see any feathers or beaks there, which proves that Jesus didn't have siblings"
"..."

[Sava]

Let's just all stop for a moment and think about how sick it is... the notion that we are committing an offense against God if we dare have sex outside of a government sanctioned procedure... legally binding two people together for the rest of their lives (in theory...)

Considering if one believes sex was "designed", it seems as if people who believe that crap are just extremely bad at observing the world God created and analyzing the function of bodies.

It's madness.

[Ben Kenobi]

Let's just all stop for a moment and think about how sick it is... the notion that we are committing an offense against God if we dare have sex outside of a government sanctioned procedure... legally binding two people together for the rest of their lives (in theory...)

Considering if one believes sex was "designed", it seems as if people who believe that crap are just extremely bad at observing the world God created and analyzing the function of bodies.

Well, you're assuming that you made your bodies. But you didn't make them. They came to you and were a gift that you had no control over how they got there. Starting from that principle, we proceed to the second principle - if your bodies were not yours because you didn't make them who does your body belong to?

Christians believe that their bodies are temples of the holy spirit, and such that we ought to live by the laws of the one who did create us, since we didn't create ourselves.

[Ben Kenobi]

Not according to the Catholics and Orthodox. Just accept that they believe this (you don't have to agree with it) or else we're going to have Ben write 5 million posts on this topic.

Mary wasn't Catholic. She's not bound by canon law.

Did Ben answer this? Since the Bible says they married (Matthew 1:24) and Ben says sex is an essential component of marriage, surely they had sex at least once in their lifetime.

It's unreasonable to expect Mary to follow a Gospel not written at the time of her marriage.

[Ben Kenobi]

There's generally a reason Loinburger cites a source without quoting it:

A valid marriage between the baptized is called ratum tantum if it has not been consummated; it is called ratum et consummatum if the spouses have performed between themselves in a human fashion a conjugal act which is suitable in itself for the procreation of offspring, to which marriage is ordered by its nature and by which the spouses become one flesh.

Nice try though!

According to Catholic doctrine. However, we don't live in a Catholic theocracy, so the Catholic definition of marriage

Yes, it is relevant, given that this thread concerns Ireland and what the Catholic church teaches on Marriage.

The obligations and responsibilities associated with sex are not the same as the obligations and responsibilities associated with marriage, hence their ages of consent need not necessarily be the same.

The obligations and responsibilities while not identical are significant. Sufficiently significant in the case of sex to have the responsibility of caring for a child. I would argue that this similarity alone is sufficient to have the exact same age requirements.

The husband and wife need only have sex once - after that, the church would not annul the marriage even if they never have sex again.

My point is if sex doesn't matter at all, why does the church treat unconsummated marriages differently from consummated ones? The answer is that marriage is a union of husband and wife where the two become one flesh.

Because sex is not as important to marriage as you seem to think

Yeah, it is that important.

- that's like saying that marriage is all about the couples' wedding vows (what's the difference between a marriage and a non-marriage? The wedding vows, duh!), which also only need to occur once (although some couples do renew them).

One word, conjugality.

[loinburger]

"A valid marriage between the baptized is called ratum tantum if it has not been consummated"

"A valid marriage between the baptized is called ratum tantum if it has not been consummated"

"A valid marriage between the baptized is called ratum tantum if it has not been consummated"

[giblets]

Mary wasn't Catholic. She's not bound by canon law.



It's unreasonable to expect Mary to follow a Gospel not written at the time of her marriage.

What...?
If you accept the gospels as historically accurate, she was married. Either she had sex or you can be married without having sex.

[loinburger]

http://catholic.nowealthbutlife.com/valid-consummated/

When thinking about celibate marriages it is essential to differentiate between a valid marriage and a consummated marriage. All real consummated marriages are by definition valid, but not all valid marriages are consummated. In fact, every valid marriage is for a time valid and not consummated.