The Catholic Church is definitely not to blame for this!

[N35t0r]

I'm also very very sarcastic

[Kidlicious]

I'm also very very sarcastic

I was going to say, that makes one of us.

[Ben Kenobi]

Can't be - the RC church decides that.

We actually don't consider Elok et al to be heretical. They are schismatics.

[Ben Kenobi]

You're exposed to atleast 5 Bertrand Russells everday on this website, all morons.

That's... probably gonna make my sig.

[Ben Kenobi]

IMHO, some people have a much larger burden than others, and in this case, the catholic church is, directly and indirectly, the bearer of most of the responsibility.

Perhaps you can point it out for the rest of us, precisely where the Catholic church supports abandoning your bastard children. Is it in the catechism?

[Ben Kenobi]

You are perfectly fine with what the USA has done in Iraq and, Afghanistan?

You prefer Saddam and the Taliban to America? Let's get real here. Sure, America ain't perfect, but they are a helluva lot better.

[Ben Kenobi]

No he didn't

Yes, he did die. On a cross. Have you any idea how painful that is?

Jesus "died" for 3 days.

He descended into hell, and after three days he resurrected from the dead. This is the core part of the Christian faith. Yes, he did die, and yes, he did rise again.

We dont get to come back in 3 days when we sacrifice our lives

We also aren't God, Berz. Jesus is God.

when an atheist sacrifices their life for others they dont do it expecting to be resurrected in 3 days.

So, again. You're seriously going to sit back and tell me that when a Christian sacrifices his life to save his squad by jumping on a grenade that this behavior is not considered altruistic?

I'm gonna call bull**** on this one. Jesus even points it out - that there is no greater love than to give up one's own life for one's friend.

If I can resurrect myself in 3 days any time I wanna die for others I'd be like Kenny battling the Coon and Cthulu(?).

You're willing to be scourged, to suffer and to die on a cross?

His Father gave him that authority according to Jesus

Sure. I don't see how that changes that he was given that authority and that he possessed that authority when he was strapped to the cross. He is God - he could have pulled himself off the cross at any time. And yet he did not. Why?

The key determinant is a belief in some reward awaiting them

I got less than a minute to decide. What if his thought is - "I need to save my friend".

Are you capable of judging hearts, Berz?

Now, why would a Christian think they might be rewarded for such a sacrifice if deeds dont matter one bit?

Because, like Stone Cold, Jesus said so. It's the love that one has - self-sacrificial love, for one's friends. That is what gets one into heaven.

So faith without good deeds does not get you into Heaven?

Nope. But then neither do good deeds without faith.

If you accept Jesus you accept his message about how to live, and his message was about good deeds.

Again, not in absence of faith. Faith first. It's all right there in James.

I already gave you one, Jesus' message to the rich man.

And Jesus comes and says, "follow me".

The Golden Rule is another, do unto others is a deed.

You're forgetting the first and greatest commandment, "Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength".

Someone who lives a moral life according to the dictates of their conscience can be saved. God is sovereign. Well then, you dont need "faith" in Jesus.

So you're willing to accept Paul in Romans now?

Because the rich man asked Jesus to join his cadre. He told Jesus he wanted to follow him and Jesus told him to do good first and then he may join.

That doesn't answer my question. Why, if it is as you believed, didn't Jesus simply say, "go and do good", instead, "give up what you have and follow me". Jesus comes first.

No, I already told you I'd need to know their motivations (beliefs) before making a distinction.

So then, how could you effectively distinguish at the time of the act?

If I risked my life to save someone expecting to be made rich for my effort would you call that altruistic?

If I risked my life to save the life of others? Absolutely.

If I saved someone expecting God to reward me in Heaven - and much of Jesus' message was about being rewarded in Heaven - would you equate that with the atheist who makes the same sacrifice without any expectation of reward?

There are other ways to get into heaven than throwing yourself on a grenade to save your friends.

I sure wouldn't, the person expecting a reward from God aint being altruistic.

Jesus is pretty clear on this, that to give up one's life to save others is the highest calling. And also - you don't have much time to think it over. Less than a minute and it's a snap decision.

Look it up yourself. I did look it up, and you did edit the verse to leave out the last part where Jesus said his authority was given to him by his Father.

And? How does that change the fact that Jesus had the authority at the time of his death, to raise himself up?

[Ben Kenobi]

Its a sad irony Jesus led to the slaughter of Jews over the centuries, they became the ultimate scapegoat and the New Testament pinned the blame on them. That of all things makes me question just how much power Jesus has

You really need to read a bible sometime Berz. What you say here is why the Jews were brought out of their exodus the first time.

Oh yeah, while we're on the subject, can we blame the Catholic Church for any role in the genocide of Jews? Didn't they more or less produce the New Testament?

Uh, you're suggesting that the Catholic church made it up when the Pharisees turned Christ over to the Romans? That they chose Barabbas over Christ?

It should never have been their decision! Pilate knew Christ was innocent and yet did not release him. Go look at the Apostles creed. It says, "Suffered under Pontius Pilate", not the Jews.

[Ben Kenobi]

Was it the sole cause, such that the RCC could be said to be primarily responsible for Nazism? Hell no.

If you do a plot concentration of Catholics in Germany, you find they are inversely proportional to NSDAP support in the Germany of 1932. Fact.

[kentonio]

7 Ben posts in a row should certainly constitute a bannable offence.

[DaShi]

Takes so long to report them all.

[Berzerker]

Ben

Nope. But then neither do good deeds without faith.

So faith without deeds and deeds without faith = hell

But you said this about moral people who never knew Jesus

Someone who lives a moral life according to the dictates of their conscience can be saved. God is sovereign.

See a contradiction? You just said deeds without faith = hell but moral people who never knew Jesus can be saved.

That doesn't answer my question. Why, if it is as you believed, didn't Jesus simply say, "go and do good", instead, "give up what you have and follow me". Jesus comes first.

I told you, the rich man asked to join Jesus. If the rich man didn't want to join, Jesus wouldn't have told him to follow.

I'll try to respond to your other points, but our posts are way too long

[Ben Kenobi]

So faith without deeds and deeds without faith = hell

But you said this about moral people who never knew Jesus

Remember what Paul says in Romans about 'Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness.'

Invincible ignorance argues that everyone has a conscience and that it helps to inform people as to what is right and wrong. Paul argues that this is a gift from God to everyone and is part of what brings people to Christ in the first place. Christ isn't so much an imposition but an affirmation of the law that is already written on people's hearts. There's no distinction, and that's what I'm trying to get across to you.

You say it can be done without faith, but there's no evidence of anything of the sort.

See a contradiction? You just said deeds without faith = hell but moral people who never knew Jesus can be saved.

Moral people who know of Jesus and choose to reject him are rejecting the source of their conscience. This is different from the invincibly ignorant. And again - this is an assessment that only God can make.

I cannot go to the crowd and point out the heart of anyone. I can only say, "this is what Christ teaches". Works alone are useless. We can no more earn our way into heaven as climb into space on an escalator.

If the rich man didn't want to join, Jesus wouldn't have told him to follow.

Would the rich man be saved if he didn't choose to join and follow Christ?

but our posts are way too long

Take your time. I'll be around late tonight. You can always pm if you prefer. Either works for me.

[Berzerker]

You say it can be done without faith, but there's no evidence of anything of the sort.

You said it can be done without faith

Moral people who know of Jesus and choose to reject him are rejecting the source of their conscience.

We're talking about moral people who dont know of Jesus - you said they can be saved. How? Living a moral life - deeds! They didn't need Jesus to be moral and they didn't need some reward in Heaven. People who do good because they believe God will give them treasure in Heaven cant compare to the people who do good without any carrots.
And altruism is doing good without any reward... Jesus suffered for a few hours and is appointed a seat next to God. The atheist suffers and expects nothing in return. And you cant compare Jesus' "death" to the death of a mortal, when we speak of dying it aint a 3 days in a cave followed by kingship in Heaven. Dead is dead.

Would the rich man be saved if he didn't choose to join and follow Christ?

Yes, Jesus told him to give his wealth to the poor and he will receive treasure in Heaven

As for Jesus saying no greater love than to sacrifice one self, he's wrong... There is a greater love, sacrificing one self with no expectation of receiving treasure in Heaven. The atheist who dies for others made the greater sacrifice than Jesus... And would I die to save others? Sure, I get to come back in 3 days and sit next to God for eternity. Isn't that the deal Jesus got for his sacrifice? That aint altruism and it aint altruism if I give up my life for treasure be it here on Earth or in Heaven.

[Ben Kenobi]

You said it can be done without faith

Abraham had faith in God and wasn't a Christian. His faith came before his actions. He trusted God. Had he doubted God, he would not have obeyed him. The same is true in those who, not knowing of Christ, follow their conscience. You have to have faith that your conscience is in fact correct.

We're talking about moral people who dont know of Jesus - you said they can be saved. How?

They are saved by following their conscience, obeying the law that God has written on their hearts.

Living a moral life - deeds! They didn't need Jesus to be moral

Sure they did. Who formed their conscience?

and they didn't need some reward in Heaven.

True, but that doesn't change the fact that they still took faith in their conscience.

People who do good because they believe God will give them treasure in Heaven cant compare to the people who do good without any carrots.

Ok. You're aware that invincible ignorance doesn't apply to anyone who's heard of Jesus and chosen to reject him? Atheists, by definition, do not count.

And altruism is doing good without any reward... Jesus suffered for a few hours and is appointed a seat next to God.

Jesus is God. The seat was already his.

The atheist suffers and expects nothing in return.

The atheist is the person who is given a great gift and believes that he himself gave it.

And you cant compare Jesus' "death" to the death of a mortal

He did die - he is both man and God. Fully God and fully man. He breathed as we did, ate as we did, slept as we did and yes, died on the cross along with the two thieves.

, when we speak of dying it aint a 3 days in a cave followed by kingship in Heaven. Dead is dead.

And he is a man. He really did live as we do, and he died just like we do.

Would the rich man be saved if he didn't choose to join and follow Christ? Yes

Where does Jesus say this?

, Jesus told him to give his wealth to the poor and he will receive treasure in Heaven

AND FOLLOW ME!

Give up the wealth and follow me. He says exactly that.

As for Jesus saying no greater love than to sacrifice one self, he's wrong... There is a greater love, sacrificing one self with no expectation of receiving treasure in Heaven.

I look forward to the Gospel according to Berzerker.

The atheist who dies for others made the greater sacrifice than Jesus

Yet, the Christian who makes the exact same sacrifice made no sacrifice at all. Your position is completely untenable, Berz.

And would I die to save others? Sure

Ok. Good luck with that Berz.

, I get to come back in 3 days and sit next to God for eternity. Isn't that the deal Jesus got for his sacrifice?

Are you missing the part where Jesus says, "I have the authority to lay my life down and take it up again". Jesus is God. He was already with God for eternity before he chose to come down.

That aint altruism and it aint altruism if I give up my life for treasure be it here on Earth or in Heaven.

Where on earth did you dig this up, Berz? Who have you been reading that said this?