The Catholic Church is definitely not to blame for this!

[Ben Kenobi]

So, the death rate is more or less exactly what you would expect?

I already posted this up above. Let Kentonio stew on that how two posters independently came to the exact same conclusion.

[kentonio]

Why would I give a **** what you think?

[Ben Kenobi]

Except it wasn't. The church was shaped mostly by money and power, it had **** all to do with 'society'.

You neatly dodged Elok's point on Bastards. Most societies treated their bastards the same way, Christian or no. It was the Church that argued they should be cared for.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why would I give a **** what you think?

Because I'm corroborated by a second poster?

[kentonio]

Shut up you lying peice of ****. The only reason we have any concept of 'bastards' is because of your ****ing death cult.

[Ben Kenobi]

Or perhaps being modern humans even they realize that some crimes are utterly beyond the pale.

True. Now you can just shove 'em in the abortion clinic and be done with it. Progress!

[Ben Kenobi]

Shut up you lying peice of ****. The only reason we have any concept of 'bastards' is because of your ****ing death cult.

China is Catholic? News to me.

[DaShi]

Jesus Christ people! We both want the same thing here: dead babies. Can't we get past the when of it and come together?

[Ben Kenobi]

God didn't sacrifice his life, the atheist did

God did die. He did sacrifice his life.

Again, if Christ is not God - then there is nothing separating him from the atheist. That he did die and that he rose is evidence that indeed, he is God.

Whatever God did sacrifice

His life. He didn't have to be strapped to the Cross, but he chose to die.

was temporary and God knew that

He knew that he had the authority to lay it down and to take it up again. That doesn't change the fact that he still chose to die on a cross. Do you have any clue how goddamned painful it is to be strapped to the cross?

the atheist doesn't know or believe and still gave their life. No doubt in my mind which sacrifice was more altruistic

Your entire concept is based on the assumption that God does not exist. If Christ were not God, there would be nothing separating his sacrifice from the atheists.

In short - if you believe that God truly did die, did rise from the dead, what sense does it make to be an atheist?

Sure there is, Jesus' sacrifice was made with the expectation of a heavenly reward

And if there is no God - he would have died for nothing.

the atheist made their sacrifice without that expectation.

You're saying that if two men jumped on a grenade to save the lives of their crew, that the key determinant as to whether or not the sacrifice was altruistic is whether or not the man was a Christian?

But accepting Christ without helping people means everything?

The two must both be there. As James says, "Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is useless.

Then why did Jesus spend most of his ministry telling people how to lead a righteous life through "deeds"?

You're going to have to provide a citation.

When Jesus speaks of accepting him, he meant accepting his message. And his message was about deeds

Again, a citation.

Now, what happens to all the righteous people who never heard of Jesus? They go to hell (or whatever) but a Hitler making a death bed conversion goes to heaven?

We know this isn't true because of Romans which states very clearly that the one who is without the law becomes a law unto himself. God judges hearts. Someone who lives a moral life according to the dictates of their conscience can be saved. God is sovereign.

And how does one store up riches in heaven?

By following the will of God. This does not always mean 'doing' something.

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." See Ben?

Jesus here explicitly said, "Come, follow me."

Are you saying the treasures would be there if he did not follow Christ?

He says it all the time, accepting him means accepting his message of doing good.

Citation, once again, needed.

Knowing which of the two was being altruistic requires knowing their beliefs.

And you can read the heart of a man from the exterior? Effectively, you could not distinguish between the two, so in reality your distinction means nothing. Both would be considered to be altruistic in observing their deeds.

He didn't die

Yes, Berz. He did die on the cross. He was tied up by the Romans and they pierced his side and blood poured out. He was dead, on the cross, before they cut him down.

and he wasn't buried

Yes, he was buried. They wrapped him in a shroud and put spices on him.

he spent 3 days in a cave

What, did he walk to the cave himself? No. He was buried there, and carried after being wrapped in a shroud.

and God rewarded him for his sacrifice.

How? Christ is already God. As Christ himself said, "I lay my life down and I take it up".

Jesus didn't say he resurrected himself, you edited the verse to leave out the source of that authority

John 10:18.

I edited nothing.

Look it up yourself.

And what Christian thinks good deeds are irrelevant to Jesus' message? Accepting Jesus, having "faith" in him, is a deed.

Again, this is in James.

James 2:14-26. From the KJV.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

[Elok]

No, they used over a thousand years of brainwashing and fearmongering.

Empty scare words devoid of specific meaning. As I noted before, they didn't have enough influence to keep people from knocking up the unwedded, did they? Just enough to pick up the pieces, because the populace couldn't be bothered to take collective responsibility.

Except it wasn't. The church was shaped mostly by money and power, it had **** all to do with 'society'.

How are money and power NOT utterly integral to society? The whole medieval order was a clunky baptism of Germanic legal and social structures, wedded to the old Roman order, which was itself a Christianization of a pagan system. As you atheists usually never tire of reminding us, we took much of our shape from the things which came before us.

Shut up you lying peice of ****. The only reason we have any concept of 'bastards' is because of your ****ing death cult.

False. The stigmatization of bastardy predates Christianity by a considerable margin, and I've never heard of a major civilization (past the Bronze Age) that didn't have it.

[kentonio]

Empty scare words devoid of specific meaning. As I noted before, they didn't have enough influence to keep people from knocking up the unwedded, did they? Just enough to pick up the pieces, because the populace couldn't be bothered to take collective responsibility.

Complete bollocks. Like I suppose the Nazis weren't responsible for the holocaust, because it was just empty words they used to get the German people on board?

How are money and power NOT utterly integral to society? The whole medieval order was a clunky baptism of Germanic legal and social structures, wedded to the old Roman order, which was itself a Christianization of a pagan system. As you atheists usually never tire of reminding us, we took much of our shape from the things which came before us.

Please stop pretending the church didn't shape society.

False. The stigmatization of bastardy predates Christianity by a considerable margin, and I've never heard of a major civilization (past the Bronze Age) that didn't have it.

Please stop trying to interfere with me trolling our resident bigot.

[Elok]

Complete bollocks. Like I suppose the Nazis weren't responsible for the holocaust, because it was just empty words they used to get the German people on board?

Oh, the Nazis were responsible. But it's not like the average German on the street loved the Jews, did he? The Nazis got their support because they were telling the Volk exactly what they wanted to hear.

Please stop pretending the church didn't shape society.

Yes, but no more than society shaped the church. It's a two-way street, and historically it's led to some strange places. Sorry, bedtime for boy, can't type details.

Please stop trying to interfere with me trolling our resident bigot.

Why do you bother? It's like Sisyphus, only you're doing it voluntarily.

[Ben Kenobi]

John 10:14-18

KJV

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

[Alexander's Horse]

Catholics are heretical.

Can't be - the RC church decides that.

[Berzerker]

God did die. He did sacrifice his life.

No he didn't, Jesus "died" for 3 days. We dont get to come back in 3 days when we sacrifice our lives, when an atheist sacrifices their life for others they dont do it expecting to be resurrected in 3 days. If I can resurrect myself in 3 days any time I wanna die for others I'd be like Kenny battling the Coon and Cthulu(?).

He knew that he had the authority to lay it down and to take it up again. That doesn't change the fact that he still chose to die on a cross. Do you have any clue how goddamned painful it is to be strapped to the cross?

His Father gave him that authority according to Jesus

You're saying that if two men jumped on a grenade to save the lives of their crew, that the key determinant as to whether or not the sacrifice was altruistic is whether or not the man was a Christian?

The key determinant is a belief in some reward awaiting them... The atheist supposedly expects no reward, the Christian does. Now, why would a Christian think they might be rewarded for such a sacrifice if deeds dont matter one bit?

The two must both be there. As James says, "Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is useless.

So faith without good deeds does not get you into Heaven? If you accept Jesus you accept his message about how to live, and his message was about good deeds.

You're going to have to provide a citation.

I already gave you one, Jesus' message to the rich man. The Golden Rule is another, do unto others is a deed. Forgive trespassers is a deed. The story of the good Samaritan... The list goes on and on.

Someone who lives a moral life according to the dictates of their conscience can be saved. God is sovereign.

Well then, you dont need "faith" in Jesus.

Jesus here explicitly said, "Come, follow me."

Are you saying the treasures would be there if he did not follow Christ?

Of course, Jesus told the rich man to give to the poor and he will store treasure in Heaven. Jesus then told the man to come follow him once he did that. Why? Because the rich man asked Jesus to join his cadre. He told Jesus he wanted to follow him and Jesus told him to do good first and then he may join.

And you can read the heart of a man from the exterior? Effectively, you could not distinguish between the two, so in reality your distinction means nothing. Both would be considered to be altruistic in observing their deeds.

No, I already told you I'd need to know their motivations (beliefs) before making a distinction. If I risked my life to save someone expecting to be made rich for my effort would you call that altruistic? If I saved someone expecting God to reward me in Heaven - and much of Jesus' message was about being rewarded in Heaven - would you equate that with the atheist who makes the same sacrifice without any expectation of reward? I sure wouldn't, the person expecting a reward from God aint being altruistic.

John 10:18.

I edited nothing.

Look it up yourself.

I did look it up, and you did edit the verse to leave out the last part where Jesus said his authority was given to him by his Father.