The Catholic Church is definitely not to blame for this!

[Ming]

In Benland, since other real evil things happen in the world, it excuses all the evil of the Catholic Church. It's like he's arguing it's ok to rape somebody since it isn't murder.

[Ben Kenobi]

Besides he equated the Catholic Church with doctors that practice infanticide. He literally has conceded already. So stop talking to him.

Right. I'm threadjacking by attacking the premise of this troll. Gosnell is ok, but this is not? Good luck with that!

[Ben Kenobi]

In Benland, since other real evil things happen in the world, it excuses all the evil of the Catholic Church. It's like he's arguing it's ok to rape somebody since it isn't murder.

I'm still waiting for JR to address Gosnell. Is there a difference between the two or does JR actually support Gosnell?

[Ming]

I'm still waiting for JR to address Gosnell. Is there a difference between the two or does JR actually support Gosnell?

What, trying to change the subject? And your BS that implies that he actually supports Gosnell is moronic at best and just your standard dishonest practice in most discussions.
What the church did was wrong... the fact that worse things happen in the world doesn't change the basic facts in the OP. You can try to change the subject or point to bigger evils, but the facts here are the facts.

[Ben Kenobi]

What, trying to change the subject?

I thought the subject was the disposal of infant children without a proper Christian burial. Something Gosnell certainly did not 75 years ago in Ireland, but in America today.

You say they are different. Why?

And your BS that implies that he actually supports Gosnell

He has all the time in the world to come out and say, "no I don't support Gosnell".

What the church did was wrong

Do you believe that what Gosnell did was wrong too?

... the fact that worse things happen in the world

The fact that worse things happen in the world today, legally, in abortion clinics across America is relevant to the topic at hand. 800 was a good week for Gosnell, not the span of 40 years.

doesn't change the basic facts in the OP.

What facts? That very young children died? I've shown that it does happen, and yes, it's a tragedy, but it's rather odd to blame the same Church that's providing food and shelter gratis to keep them alive, maybe we should be pointing fingers elsewhere?

Berz has already called to shut down the Catholic church entirely.

Rather than permitting the Catholic church to work at saving the lives of many children at the loss of some, you're saying you'd prefer we did nothing and let them all die. Who was paying for all these homes, Ming? Who was paying to look after these mothers and these children? There were over 14 thousand children, that - went on to have a life because of what these homes did.

Does that not count for anything in your book? All the work that the nuns did to preserve life and to shelter these children through the years?

Why don't we see an article from one of the children who grew up and went on to succeed, Ming?

[Ming]

I thought the subject was the disposal of infant children without a proper Christian burial. Something Gosnell certainly did not 75 years ago in Ireland, but in America today.

No, the subject was the actions of the Catholic church, not Gosnell. You are the one that keeps trying to add him to the discussion.

You say they are different. Why?

Please quote me where I say they are different... oh that's right, you just made that up.

He has all the time in the world to come out and say, "no I don't support Gosnell".

So I guess you should post that you don't rape your students everyday to prove you don't??????

Do you believe that what Gosnell did was wrong too?

Not part of the discussion... just something you just keep wanting to bring up. Start your own thread if it's that important to you.

The fact that worse things happen in the world today, legally, in abortion clinics across America is relevant to the topic at hand. 800 was a good week for Gosnell, not the span of 40 years.

While it might be relevant, it doesn't change the facts of the OP or excuse the Catholic church for their actions.

What facts? That very young children died? I've shown that it does happen, and yes, it's a tragedy, but it's rather odd to blame the same Church that's providing food and shelter gratis to keep them alive, maybe we should be pointing fingers elsewhere?

Only pointing the finger at those responsible... It's your standard practice to change the discussion and point fingers elsewhere.

Rather than permitting the Catholic church to work at saving the lives of many children at the loss of some, you're saying you'd prefer we did nothing and let them all die. Who was paying for all these homes, Ming? Who was paying to look after these mothers and these children? There were over 14 thousand children, that - went on to have a life because of what these homes did.

Again... trying to put words in my mouth... good luck with that. While many may have been saved, many weren't treated as well... And at the cost of their lives.

Why don't we see an article from one of the children who grew up and went on to succeed, Ming?

Well... at least those that did manage to survive have a chance to write an article... many never got that chance.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, the subject was the actions of the Catholic church

And what actions were those?

The fact that they actually saved the lives of about 15 thousand children? Through the charitable actions of the nuns, and of the parishioners who supported the mission and looked after all these children?

So I guess you should post that you don't rape your students everyday to prove you don't??????

I asked JR, "do you support Gosnell?" So far he has declined to answer the question. Until he does, whether he does or does not support Gosnell is an open question.

Not part of the discussion

Gosnell did this exact same thing, except he did it every week instead of over 40 years, he did it in America and at the end of the day there were no survivors. You said, "comparing it with a greater evil is dodging the question'. Nope. Addressing the greater evil which is happening in America today is the topic.

Unless of course the actual topic is simply bashing the Catholic church. In which case, facts are irrelevant.

While it might be relevant, it doesn't change the facts of the OP or excuse the Catholic church for their actions.

If JR is unwilling to condemn the worse actions of others, then it establishes that it's got nothing to do with the actions, but everything to do with the Catholic church.

Only pointing the finger at those responsible

So who is responsible? The Catholic parishioners who paid for the care of 15 thousand indigent children? For over 40 years? The nuns who supplied the care and cooked the food and looked after the babies.

You say, 'hold those responsible'. Yet, the only one being held responsible is, 'the Catholic church'

That's an awful broad brush.

point fingers elsewhere.

It's been charged to "the Catholic church", presumably, once again, applying collective responsibility rather than individual responsibility. Am I responsible for actions that happened 45 years before I was born?

Again... trying to put words in my mouth... good luck with that. While many may have been saved, many weren't treated as well... And at the cost of their lives.

800 of 15 thousand is not excessive. Hospitals at the time were not much better.

It is easy to criticize those who actually did something rather than nothing. 15k children is not a small thing. Many children did go on to have successful lives. I would like to hear some of their stories.

[Ming]

And what actions were those?

The fact that they actually saved the lives of about 15 thousand children? Through the charitable actions of the nuns, and of the parishioners who supported the mission and looked after all these children?

Again, does the good out weigh the evil?

I asked JR, "do you support Gosnell?" So far he has declined to answer the question. Until he does, whether he does or does not support Gosnell is an open question.

An open question only to you. Again, do you need to post every day that you don't rape your students... I guess that's an open question as well...

Gosnell did this exact same thing, except he did it every week instead of over 40 years, he did it in America and at the end of the day there were no survivors. You said, "comparing it with a greater evil is dodging the question'. Nope. Addressing the greater evil which is happening in America today is the topic.

Then start a thread on that evil if you so desire. There are many great evils in the world today and in the past... Just because one is more evil in your mind doesn't lessen any of the other evils.

Unless of course the actual topic is simply bashing the Catholic church. In which case, facts are irrelevant.

Hmmm... the actual topics is the actions of the Catholic church. And facts are provided and very relevant. If you want to consider the truth bashing, that's your problem.

If JR is unwilling to condemn the worse actions of others, then it establishes that it's got nothing to do with the actions, but everything to do with the Catholic church.

Your opinion only... You seem to be the one that wants to minimize the bad actions by pointing out worse actions of others. Again, in your opinion, is rape ok since it's not murder?

So who is responsible? The Catholic parishioners who paid for the care of 15 thousand indigent children? For over 40 years? The nuns who supplied the care and cooked the food and looked after the babies.

Maybe they should have taken better care of those they were charged with.

You say, 'hold those responsible'. Yet, the only one being held responsible is, 'the Catholic church'

That's an awful broad brush.

People can paint the picture however they want. You have your opinion, and others have theirs. What happened was wrong, and you have yet to admit that it was. You just want to point to other evils and make excuses.

800 of 15 thousand is not excessive. Hospitals at the time were not much better.

It is easy to criticize those who actually did something rather than nothing. 15k children is not a small thing. Many children did go on to have successful lives. I would like to hear some of their stories.

Yes, it would be interesting to hear the stories of the survivors. They might be able to shed even more light on what went on there. However, if none stand up and speak out, what does that say....

[ZEE]

[Sava]

I was wondering when Ming was going to start pwning him

[Ben Kenobi]

Again, does the good out weigh the evil?

What evil was done here? You saw the pictures. Those children don't look particularly unhappy nor do they look emaciated. If we're going by the conditions in 1944, they might not be exactly representative of a normal situation.

An open question only to you. Again, do you need to post every day that you don't rape your students... I guess that's an open question as well...

Given his statement about unwanted pregnancy? Hey, he makes this thread about abortion - Gosnell becomes relevant.

Then start a thread on that evil if you so desire. There are many great evils in the world today and in the past... Just because one is more evil in your mind doesn't lessen any of the other evils.

Well, this one is about unwanted pregnancies according to JR.

Hmmm... the actual topics is the actions of the Catholic church. And facts are provided and very relevant. If you want to consider the truth bashing, that's your problem.

It seems quite simply that many here believe it's no big deal if it's not the Catholic church. Berz gave this position, which indicates to me this is just prejudice and nothing more. You don't need facts for that.

Your opinion only... You seem to be the one that wants to minimize the bad actions by pointing out worse actions of others. Again, in your opinion, is rape ok since it's not murder?

Is rape ok when it doesn't involve the Catholic church?

Maybe they should have taken better care of those they were charged with.

Aside from one quote which doesn't seem to corroborate with the photo evidence (which doesn't show emaciation), what evidence is there for maltreatment?

People can paint the picture however they want.

If your goal is justice you should target those responsible. Collective responsibility is bull****. If your goal is smearing others then you'll make the brush as wide as possible.

Yes, it would be interesting to hear the stories of the survivors. They might be able to shed even more light on what went on there. However, if none stand up and speak out, what does that say.

And what if they say, "the nuns were wonderful ladies"? Are they part of the 'cover up'?

[Ben Kenobi]

I have now decided that BK rapes his students as he's now had two opportunities to deny it and he hasn't

No I do not, nor have I ever engaged in any such behavior with any of my students at any time.

Now, can we see if JR actually answers the question?

[Ben Kenobi]

he actively defends the Catholic church against accusations of paedophilia

Uh, maybe Moby's rather 'special', but this has nothing to do with pedophilia. I suggest if you don't want to be regarded as the boy who cried wolf, you should cry when there are wolves around. This makes you look like someone who reflexively cries 'pedophile' whenever you hear 'Catholic church'.

[-Jrabbit]

Ben Kenobi:

1. Post 11 - I referred to Gosnell as a murderer. That should have been sufficient evidence that I do not support him in any way (and I do not). I take your associating my name with him as deliberately slanderous.

2. You are also totally off topic. In the news stories referenced in the OP, unwanted pregnancies resulted in unmarried girls being sent to the home, where they carried to term and gave birth.

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ABORTION.

[Sava]

No I do not, nor have I ever engaged in any such behavior with any of my students at any time.

Prove it.