The Catholic Church is definitely not to blame for this!

[Berzerker]

Ben, the rich man wanted to join Jesus - thats why Jesus told him to follow. But before Jesus told him to follow, he should give his wealth to the poor and he will receive treasure in Heaven. Jesus did not tell him he'd get that treasure if he followed, he'd get it for giving his stuff to the poor.

Who formed their conscience?

By that logic God/Jesus formed the consciences of people who dont help others and God is to blame for every decision we make. So anyway, people who never knew Jesus (or "God") can be saved by their deeds even though they didn't have faith in God. You're judging their hearts to include that faith because your argument fell apart, so according to you even atheists have faith in a God they deny exists. You've given the credit they deserve to a God - your God - they dont even know.

Yet, the Christian who makes the exact same sacrifice made no sacrifice at all. Your position is completely untenable, Berz.

I didn't say they made no sacrifice, I said their sacrifice was in exchange for treasure in Heaven and therefore the sacrifice was not altruistic and less than the sacrifice of the person who gave their life without any carrots.

Are you missing the part where Jesus says, "I have the authority to lay my life down and take it up again". Jesus is God. He was already with God for eternity before he chose to come down.

Jesus never said he was God and he said that authority was given to him by his Father. But that makes the sacrifice even less impressive, us regular folk lay our lives down without taking it up again. Except for Christians and others who believe in an afterlife where they are rewarded for their deeds. That isn't altruism...

As for Abraham, he knew God. You cant compare him to the atheist who does good without knowing God. And frankly Abraham is not a role model, to murder your son because some deity wants to see if you'll do it is not moral - apparently not even God can read our hearts. Its disgusting and both God and Abraham are guilty. But according to you, Jesus is God and therefore it was Jesus telling Abraham to murder his son. And of course that means it was Jesus who told the Israelites to commit genocide and all sorts of terrible crimes. I'd be reluctant to attach Jesus to the bloodbath perpetrated by his Father, he doesn't strike me as a genocidal butcher.

[MRT144]

During the deposition taken last month, attorney Jeff Anderson asked Carlson whether he knew it was a crime for an adult to engage in sex with a child. “I’m not sure whether I knew it was a crime or not,”Carlson replied. “I understand today it’s a crime.” Anderson went on to ask Carlson whether he knew in 1984, when he was an auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, that it was crime for a priest to engage in sex with a child. “I’m not sure if I did or didn’t,”Carlson said.

http://www.joemygod.blogspot.com/2014/06/minnesota-archbishop-says-he-wasnt-sure.html

Good ****ing god

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, the rich man wanted to join Jesus - thats why Jesus told him to follow.

My point is what if he tried to do what you are doing and split them apart. Would that work? No.

But before Jesus told him to follow, he should give his wealth to the poor and he will receive treasure in Heaven. Jesus did not tell him he'd get that treasure if he followed, he'd get it for giving his stuff to the poor.

Again, Jesus told him to follow. He didn't say, "do all this and you'll be saved". No. Give your stuff away that's keeping you from him and follow Him.

Who formed their conscience? By that logic God/Jesus formed the consciences of people who dont help others and God is to blame for every decision we make.

Conscience!= Will. Do I really need to get into this whole discussion? People do things all the time contrary to their conscience. That doesn't make what they do approved by their conscience.

So anyway, people who never knew Jesus (or "God") can be saved by their deeds even though they didn't have faith in God.

If they obey God and his commandments via their conscience.

You're judging their hearts to include that faith because your argument fell apart

I'm quoting Romans. You really need to read the bible, Berz before you argue against it.

, so according to you even atheists have faith in a God they deny exists.

I'm saying that Atheists have knowledge of God, and that they choose to reject him. They are not invincibly ignorant.

You've given the credit they deserve to a God - your God - they dont even know.

Oh, they know him quite well. They just don't want to be on his team.

Yet, the Christian who makes the exact same sacrifice made no sacrifice at all. Your position is completely untenable, Berz. I didn't say they made no sacrifice

You said, "it's not a sacrifice if they have a heavenly reward". Again, your position is completely untenable. According to you - the only one who would ever be saved would be Atheists who don't believe.

I said their sacrifice was in exchange for treasure in Heaven and therefore the sacrifice was not altruistic and less than the sacrifice of the person who gave their life without any carrots.

But Atheists get a blind pass? What if an atheist says he feels good when he does good things?

Jesus never said he was God

Yes, he did say he is God. "I am the way and the truth and the light".

and he said that authority was given to him by his Father.

Indeed. Which makes him God too.

But that makes the sacrifice even less impressive

Why does Gold have value, Berz?

As for Abraham, he knew God. You cant compare him to the atheist who does good without knowing God.

And I'm sure you'll come up with some excuse as to why 'Abraham's sacrifice doesn't count' because he's not an ATHEIST"

And frankly Abraham is not a role model, to murder your son because some deity wants to see if you'll do it is not moral - apparently not even God can read our hearts.

You're opposed to Abortion, Berz?

he doesn't strike me as a genocidal butcher.

As opposed to Kermit Gosnell? Oh right. Those are even younger children. So child sacrifice is ok, when it's an atheist doing it.

Again - where are you getting this from Berz?

[kentonio]

Only Ben could compare Jesus to Gosnell.

[Kidlicious]

Is it ok to say Irish are horrible too?

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben supports all this, because he is actively defending it.

I fail to see why people who support abortion clinics have anything on which to condemn others.

You seem perfectly ok with clinics that see thousands of people a year and kill all of their children.

[kentonio]

Should we be calling you Dr. Bengele...?

Oh snap! I think you just started something genius!

[dannubis]

a new name has been born

[The Mad Monk]

Given the obvious involvement of government and universities at the time (human vaccination trials? Really??), I'd say this is more an Irish problem than a Catholic problem. The Irish were an oppressed people for centuries, and I can see how they could turn their shame and rage on the weakest amongst them.

[Imran Siddiqui]

NO, TMM! Then you can't blame everything on the Catholic Church!!

[Elok]

Even to say that "The Church"="the church's hierarchy" is to ignore how churches actually work. Or religious communities in general. Or just plain communities, period. But what do we know? We're just members of actual religious communities, after all.

[Ben Kenobi]

You are defending this story - therefore you are in effect supporting everything that they did...

Wow. Fallacy much?

As for abortion - at least those foetuses never even knew what happened to them - whereas you can bet your bottom dollar that the 'survivors' of the catholic genocide against an 'inferior sub-species' totally knew the suffering of starvation and the medical experiments they were subjected to...

Odd that since the very founder of Planned Parenthood was totally in favor of eradicating black people as she considered them to be unfit.

[DinoDoc]

FTR Ben this would have been a better defense than the one you gave: Tuam mother and baby home: the trouble with the septic tank story

[Ben Kenobi]

Is it a better defense when given by me or by someone like yourself or Elok?

[DinoDoc]

It's better than going straight to the Gosnell well.