The Catholic Church is definitely not to blame for this!

[Ben Kenobi]

It's better than going straight to the Gosnell well.

Your argument is more effective coming from others. We both know this thread had nothing to do with the content of the article past "Catholic Church"

[Berzerker]

My point is what if he tried to do what you are doing and split them apart. Would that work? No.

Yes, it would work. Jesus said giving to the poor (deeds) builds treasure in Heaven. But the man wanted to join him, so he told him to give his stuff away. He cant follow with his stuff.

Conscience!= Will. Do I really need to get into this whole discussion? People do things all the time contrary to their conscience. That doesn't make what they do approved by their conscience.

But atheists willingly deny the existence of God. They dont have "faith" in Jesus. You said they need faith in Jesus. But you also said people who dont know Jesus can be saved if they live a moral life. Thats called deeds, not faith.

If they obey God and his commandments via their conscience.

They're violating the 1st Commandment

I'm saying that Atheists have knowledge of God, and that they choose to reject him. They are not invincibly ignorant.

Sounds like you're judging hearts and accusing people of lying.

You said, "it's not a sacrifice if they have a heavenly reward". Again, your position is completely untenable. According to you - the only one who would ever be saved would be Atheists who don't believe.

Thats right, we're debating altruism. The definition says getting a reward for your sacrifice isn't altruism. God suffering a few hours of pain cant compare to the suffering of mankind, the sacrifice a parent makes dying to save their child from attack makes God's sacrifice pale in comparison. Its actually insulting to exalt what "God" did when people suffer all sorts of terrible fates. If "God" died for anyone's sins, it was his for creating a sinful creation.

But Atheists get a blind pass? What if an atheist says he feels good when he does good things?

Then they have the same motive I have for helping others. I said I was not altruistic, neither are they.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, it would work.

No. It will not work.

Jesus said giving to the poor (deeds) builds treasure in Heaven. But the man wanted to join him, so he told him to give his stuff away. He cant follow with his stuff.

Jesus commanded that he join him. He did not say, "go and give all away to the poor", and end there. No, he said, "go and give all away to the poor, and FOLLOW ME".

See, this is what you do not understand. You seem to think of it as, "I do this one thing and Jesus is satisfied", and I go to heaven. No, that is not how it works.

But atheists willingly deny the existence of God.

And? I can willfully deny the existence of the Indian Ocean. I've never seen it. I have no direct proof that it exists.

They dont have "faith" in Jesus.

Indeed. This is why they cannot be saved - they have rejected Him.

You said they need faith in Jesus. But you also said people who dont know Jesus can be saved if they live a moral life. Thats called deeds, not faith.

Wilfull ignorance is wholly different. The atheist knows that God exists, but chooses not to play on his team.

Sounds like you're judging hearts and accusing people of lying.

I've yet to meet an atheist who didn't have contact with Christianity. This, again is different from those who have no knowledge of God.

Its actually insulting to exalt what "God" did

Why? God chose to give his life up for us. Why is it insulting? God has value because it lasts. For a very long time. Christ is giving up something that has infinite value - his life, for people here on earth.

If "God" died for anyone's sins, it was his for creating a sinful creation.

Again, sin was not with man in the beginning.

But Atheists get a blind pass? What if an atheist says he feels good when he does good things? Then they have the same motive

Then no altruism exists.

[molly bloom]

The Church was only where it started.

Anti-semitism ? On a Europe or Asia or Africa wide scale ? Well, other than the Western Roman or Eastern Roman Empires, which international body could influence public opinion, behaviour, attitudes and beliefs on such a wide scale ?

Admittedly we don't hear about organised anti-semitism so much in the Orthodox churches, but let's be clear- it began with Constantine the Great.

The adoption of Christianity as the state religion meant that pilgrimages to holy places and settlement in the Middle East were both encouraged- like an earlier version of the Irish church and state double platter. This meant that areas where there were significant Jewish populations, such as Palestine, became especially popular as places to dispute (and thus triumph) over Jews.

The Church saw itself (and portrayed itself) as 'Verus Israel'- the Jews were thus false Israel, punished by Vespasian and his son Titus for the killing of Jesus (bizarrely the legends go on to suggest that those two supported Christianity).

Augustine of Hippo justified punishment/humiliation of the Jews by a tortuous interpretation of Psalm 59:11.

Another early churchman vigorous in his denunciations of the Jews was St John Chrysostom.

Early church councils laid down laws/rulings that affected people's interaction with Jews and not favourably. Justinian I added new laws (novellae) to his Corpus Iuris Civilis which were designed expressly to adversely affect Jews and curtail their economic activities in the Byzantine empire. They also affected the practice of the Jewish religion- forbidding the Torah to be read in public in Hebrew.

Once Justinian's great general, Belisarius, conquered the Vandal kingdom of North Africa, the Jews became endangered there too- those living in Burion, fifth city of the Libyan Pentapolis, were forcibly converted and their synagogue became a church. Unsurprisingly, Jews fled to the free Berber tribes, in some cases making converts, and also escaped to the Persian Sassanid kingdom.

Even as far away as southern Arabia, the Byzantines could persuade their Ethiopian ally to invade and destroy the Jewish Himyarite kingdom.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Admittedly we don't hear about organised anti-semitism so much in the Orthodox churches, but let's be clear- it began with Constantine the Great.

The adoption of Christianity as the state religion meant...

Btw, you do realize that Constantine didn't make Christianity the state religion, right?

[molly bloom]

You're exposed to atleast 5 Bertrand Russells everday on this website, all morons.

From the chap who thinks it's a good thing to compare himself with the Klan. Foot, meet mouth. Now enter....

[Elok]

Anti-semitism ? On a Europe or Asia or Africa wide scale ? Well, other than the Western Roman or Eastern Roman Empires, which international body could influence public opinion, behaviour, attitudes and beliefs on such a wide scale ?

While I don't know enough about the history of anti-semitism to contest the rest of what you said (and I don't particularly care, TBH), I wouldn't assume irrational prejudices need any particular coordinating body to spread. They certainly don't today.

[Kidlicious]

From the chap who thinks it's a good thing to compare himself with the Klan. Foot, meet mouth. Now enter....

I called you a nazi. Is that what you mean?

[Ben Kenobi]

Btw, you do realize that Constantine didn't make Christianity the state religion, right?

The man is clearly a history expert!

[Berzerker]

Conscience!= Will. Do I really need to get into this whole discussion? People do things all the time contrary to their conscience. That doesn't make what they do approved by their conscience.

So non-Christians can be saved by doing good deeds because God gave them a conscience and that = faith in Jesus?

Jesus commanded that he join him. He did not say, "go and give all away to the poor", and end there. No, he said, "go and give all away to the poor, and FOLLOW ME".

See, this is what you do not understand. You seem to think of it as, "I do this one thing and Jesus is satisfied", and I go to heaven. No, that is not how it works.

Jesus did not command him, the rich man asked to join Jesus. And Jesus told him, give your stuff away and you will build treasure in Heaven. Then you can join.

And? I can willfully deny the existence of the Indian Ocean. I've never seen it. I have no direct proof that it exists.

Did the Indian Ocean serve as your motivation for helping others?

Indeed. This is why they cannot be saved - they have rejected Him.

But you said they can be saved if they lead moral lives

I've yet to meet an atheist who didn't have contact with Christianity. This, again is different from those who have no knowledge of God.

You weren't alive 2,000 years ago

Why? God chose to give his life up for us. Why is it insulting? God has value because it lasts. For a very long time. Christ is giving up something that has infinite value - his life, for people here on earth.

I told you why its insulting, and he didn't give up his life - thats insulting too. Death for us aint walking out of a cave in 3 days. If I knew I"d be back in 3 days I wouldn't give much thought to recklessly endangering my life to help someone. You cant compare that to the person who dies helping others.

Again, sin was not with man in the beginning.

Apparently sin came to man in God's Garden...and God allowed it.

Then no altruism exists.

Maybe it doesn't, but it aint altruism if you do good because God will reward you in Heaven. You're getting paid to do good.

[Ben Kenobi]

So non-Christians can be saved by doing good deeds because God gave them a conscience and that = faith in Jesus?

The conscience is the standard for everyone - by which they come to know right and wrong. Acting against your conscience is sinning - everyone is held to the same standard - Jesus Christ himself. Those who know of him, can accept Christ in order to be saved. Those - who through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel of Christ can be saved through the law written on their own heart.

Atheists already know the Gospel and have chosen to play on a different team. That is fine - except they can hardly expect God to not take them at their word. They want to play on the other team, God will let them make that choice. But choices have consequences.

Jesus did not command him, the rich man asked to join Jesus. And Jesus told him, give your stuff away and you will build treasure in Heaven. Then you can join.

Again, it was not just a one-time thing that he had to do in order to be with Christ. He had to come and follow him.

Did the Indian Ocean serve as your motivation for helping others?

The question you should really be asking yourself is, "does Ben Kenobi have any actual direct experiences that would cause him to change his opinion on this issue?"

I wasn't a Christian until I was 19, Berz.

But you said they can be saved if they lead moral lives

Again, you're confusing two different things. Atheists have heard the Gospel and chosen to play on the other team.

You weren't alive 2,000 years ago

And how is that applicable to atheists today?

I told you why its insulting

Yes, because:

1, you don't consider himself God and yet, you believe he died and rose from the dead.

I don't understand it. If he's not God, then he's just a charlatan who didn't rise from the dead, and so there's no reason to be insulted.

If he is God, then there is every reason to be pissed, because you're playing on the wrong team.

Death for us aint walking out of a car

And you're saying death for him was nothing? Death on a cross?

If I knew I"d be back in 3 days

So you're saying you would willingly submit to a crucifixion if you knew you'd die, and go to hell, and then later go to heaven?

Then why don't you believe in Christ today?

You cant compare that to the person who dies helping others.

You're right it's not comparable, because WE ARE NOT GOD, Berz. Is this so difficult to understand? Each of our lives will pass, probably for the both of us within the next 50 years, it will be a small candle that flickers, burns and then snuffs out.

What value is this compared to something that will always be there?

Apparently sin came to man in God's Garden...and God allowed it.

And man chose to live by it rather than God.

Maybe it doesn't, but it aint altruism if you do good because God will reward you in Heaven. You're getting paid to do good.

So you're saying that Mother Theresa wasn't being charitable in giving her life up to serve the poor because she believed it was her calling from God?

[Berzerker]

Charitable yes, altruistic, no... If you believe your good deeds build treasure in Heaven, you're not acting selflessly. And how do you know every atheist on the planet has read the New Testament? Furthermore, why on Earth (or in Heaven) would anyone send people to hell or heaven based on a book?

The Romans wrote a book and everyone has to believe it or go to hell - so says God

On a sidenote, according to your logic Christian missionaries are sending people to hell... If they run around shoving Bibles in front of the ignorant masses some of those people will decide the book is bollocks and be sent to hell even if they lead a moral life. But I guess your logic would say those people who read the Bible and dont believe Jesus is God are immoral, true? They've decided to play on the other team? Ironically Christian missionaries are playing the role of the Snake in the Garden, they're bringing a knowledge to the ignorant that might condemn its readers to hell.

What is faith in Jesus? Believing he's God? Where'd he say that? Why does he constantly talk about God as his Father who is in Heaven? When Jesus says he is the way, he's talking about his message. His teachings... Deeds! Having faith in Jesus means living morally and moral people help others. It doesn't mean we gotta believe he's God, or the son of God, or a prophet, or..... Thats why moral people go to heaven regardless of whether or not they ever heard of Jesus. Well, if you believe in that stuff.

[Ben Kenobi]

And how do you know every atheist on the planet has read the New Testament?

I've yet to meet one who hasn't. They seem rarer than hen's teeth. Most Atheists are very familiar with Christianity - the issue isn't that they haven't read the Gospel, but that they have and choose to play on another team.

Furthermore, why on Earth (or in Heaven) would anyone send people to hell or heaven based on a book?

Good question.

On a sidenote, according to your logic Christian missionaries are sending people to hell

One of the first things I said here, is to demonstrate what is going on. Someone hears of Christianity - it again, isn't alien to them - it touches on what they have seen and already perceived. It provides answers to questions they have already asked themselves.

How is this condemning people to hell? People choose this - whether they choose to accept or reject Christ. That is entirely their decision. It's no different then arguing that teaching people to read is a bad thing because they apprehend evil ideas.

If they run around shoving Bibles in front of the ignorant masses some of those people will decide the book is bollocks and be sent to hell even if they lead a moral life.

If you think the book is bullocks, what are the odds that you would receive the Gospel message as an affirmation as to what you currently believe? Those who reject the Bible also reject the morality of the bible - the same 'living a moral life'.

How does one define this, Berz?

But I guess your logic would say those people who read the Bible and dont believe Jesus is God are immoral, true?

I was one of those people myself Berz. And do I think morality is possible without God? No. How do I reconcile the view that I believe that I understood some of what morality was all about before I became a Christian? Because I have a conscience which God placed there in the first place.

So no. I don't believe that an atheist is any different than a computer program asserting that the rules and laws by which it was designed, were made by itself. You would consider it illogical. You would point out saying that "these rules were designed by the one who made you." And that is precisely the conundrum here.

You - seem to believe that your morality is something that you created yourself. Where is the evidence for this? I see nothing in you that you've came about that is unique - that is different from many others.

They've decided to play on the other team? Ironically Christian missionaries are playing the role of the Snake in the Garden, they're bringing a knowledge to the ignorant that might condemn its readers to hell.

And you would argue that ignorance is preferable to knowledge?

What is faith in Jesus? Believing he's God? Where'd he say that?

John 6:33-58

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Why does he constantly talk about God as his Father who is in Heaven?

Because he is the Son of God. God is his Father in heaven.

When Jesus says he is the way, he's talking about his message.

Then why does he say, " I am the manna from heaven".

His teachings... Deeds!

His first commandment - "Love the Lord your God".

Deeds?

Having faith in Jesus means living morally and moral people help others.

It means obeying the commandments that God has set down and Loving God.

It doesn't mean we gotta believe he's God

Yes, it does.

, or the son of God, or a prophet, or..... Thats why moral people go to heaven regardless of whether or not they ever heard of Jesus.

God is sovereign. He chooses, in the end whom will be saved, and he can read our hearts.

Well, if you believe in that stuff.

Which is precisely my question. Why are you asking these questions? If Jesus did not rise from the dead, then that's the basic point. If he did, he is God. If he did not, then there's no reason to be angry that he rose from the dead. If he did and you're on the other team, then yes, you have every reason to be angry.

[molly bloom]

Btw, you do realize that Constantine didn't make Christianity the state religion, right?

Can't recall mentioning or thinking that he did.

You'll note I still haven't mentioned Martin Luther's notorious anti-Semitic diatribe- but I'm sure, in the true ecumenical spirit, that I'll get round to it.

[molly bloom]

While I don't know enough about the history of anti-semitism to contest the rest of what you said (and I don't particularly care, TBH), I wouldn't assume irrational prejudices need any particular coordinating body to spread. They certainly don't today.

These weren't seen as 'irrational' prejudices- given that Christians believed that the biblical texts were the literal word of God, and that anti-Semitic sentiments are in the New Testament, any punishment or humiliation meted out to the Jews, either as a religion or a people, were seen as their just deserts- for being Christ killers and Christ deniers.

I called you a nazi. Is that what you mean?

Did you ? I can't have been paying attention to such a ludicrous assertion.