Detroit police chief: Legal gun owners can deter crime

[Ben Kenobi]

Since when do you care what a thread specifically says!?

Given as I was asking for a pertinent citation? Am I going to have to specify now that I want citations in English? I already take it for granted that what citation that's provided is going to be wrong.

[Dr Strangelove]

When is someone going to referrence the Kleck study?

[Ben Kenobi]

You didn't have a problem at the beginning as C0ckney points out, but now the argument is going against you

I already demolished the study as I showed it doesn't actually claim what Cockney says it claims. Now I'm just going for bonus points, since Cockney's 'rebuttal' was a mixture of an appeal to authority and calling me a liar. I'm sorry, I'm just not brilliant enough to understand Portuguese, the language only Cockney understands.

[DinoDoc]

When is someone going to referrence the Kleck study?

I referenced a study in the beginning if it makes you feel better.

[Ben Kenobi]

No you didn't. You are a liar. No, finally something I agree with, you're not. Apparently there are 220 million native Portuguese speakers, so again you are wrong.

Then perhaps Cockney's rebuttal should have consisted of more than an appeal to authority. Again - I cited the article and it said what I claimed it did - that it was balanced and issued caution in interpretation of the statistic. He goes on to warn that he had insufficient data to conclude that gun ownershp made you more likely to die. There is the entire matter of total encounters; if gun ownersip makes it less likely that you get in a confrontation in the first place then it's quite possible that it makes you less and not more likely.

And again - if people who are more likely to get carjacked in this fashion are also more likely to own a gun - then we would expect to see them get in more incidents and have a greater likelihood of them being fatal. The study shows no indication this type of analysis has been performed.

[DinoDoc]

the point though is that the risk to perpetrator, the victim and indeed passersby, increases when the victim is armed.

According to the study I linked to in the beginning of the thread: states [obviously within the US] with restrictions on the carrying of concealed weapons had higher gun-related murder rates than other states.

As for your anecdote, I already posted a competing one. I would however be interested in seeing an English translation of the study you reference if one exists. It might not given the purpose of the study and its intended audience but a translation would make it easier for me to see what it says for myself.

[C0ckney]

for anyone who likes a good laugh, here is what you get when you put what ben posted through google translate.

Para José Fauri, pesquisas como essa são sempre apenas parcialmente verídicas, pois não levam em conta os crimes que foram evitados e, portanto, não se transformam em registro policial.

For José Fauri, searches like this are always only partially true, because not take into account the crimes that were avoided and therefore do not become police record.

and here is ben's paraphrasing of the same.

Essentially - the data doesn't support the evidence that gun owners are more likely to face confrontation than those without. The suppressive effect hasn't been tested at all. They only look at confrontations and he cautions against using the data to support confiscation, when there is evidence to suggest that a suppressive effect will cull all but the most determined theives.

catching ben lying is like catching the sun rising in the east.

[C0ckney]

According to the study I linked to in the beginning of the thread: states [obviously within the US] with restrictions on the carrying of concealed weapons had higher gun-related murder rates than other states.

As for your anecdote, I already posted a competing one. I would however be interested in seeing an English translation of the study you reference if one exists. It might not given the purpose of the study and its intended audience but a translation would make it easier for me to see what it says for myself.

a state, or city etc. may have a higher murder rate than another for all sorts of reasons. unless you control for that, then such studies are worthless.

i posted a summary of a study (in post 62) which addresses the specific issue of robbery situations with armed and unarmed victims.

[DinoDoc]

a state, or city etc. may have a higher murder rate than another for all sorts of reasons. unless you control for that, then such studies are worthless.

The purpose of the present study is to determine the effects of state-level assault weapons bans and concealed weapons laws on state-level murder rates. Using data for the period 1980 to 2009 and controlling for state and year fixed effects, the results of the present study suggest that states with restrictions on the carrying of concealed weapons had higher gun-related murder rates than other states. It was also found that assault weapons bans did not significantly affect murder rates at the state level. These results suggest that restrictive concealed weapons laws may cause an increase in gun-related murders at the state level. The results of this study are consistent with some prior research in this area, most notably Lott and Mustard (1997).

[C0ckney]

that's very vague and could mean anything. could you point out the specific passage you had in mind?

[Ben Kenobi]

catching ben lying is like catching the sun rising in the east.

Where's the lie? It's a disclaimer. "evitadoes", crimes evaded, which parses better in my paraphrase. Evade has the wrong connotations...

[Ban Kenobi]

Ben couldn't even spell the word he's allegedly translating correctly...

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, typos are evidence against comprehension.