Armistice Day

[Imran Siddiqui]

Also, I think Yalta is a perfect answer to the question of whether Churchill's war aim was to 'liberate' Poland. The answer to that is, unquestionably, no.

[Ben Kenobi]

Also, I think Yalta is a perfect answer to the question of whether Churchill's war aim was to 'liberate' Poland. The answer to that is, unquestionably, no.

Given the Churchill quote that war with the Soviet union was inadviseable has already been posted in the thread, you're incorrect there. But it's good to see people acknowledge that Poland wasn't helped by Stalin.

[giblets]

So... he chose to go to war with Nazi Germany for Poland's sake but he wouldn't fight the Soviet Union for Poland's sake? Interesting theory...

[Ben Kenobi]

So... he chose to go to war with Nazi Germany for Poland's sake but he wouldn't fight the Soviet Union for Poland's sake? Interesting theory

Things change between '39 and '45.

[molly bloom]

Yes, and? He set out to war - refers to Churchill, not to Britain. Churchill himself set out to war to protect Poland.

Did he ? In 1939 ? I confess, I missed his single handed relief of the siege of Warsaw when I was reading all those books on WWII. It's amazing no-one's made a film of it.

Could you, par chance, possibly quote Churchill then, on that very subject ? I await avidly....

Hey, I'm not the one who thinks that the UK went to war with the Soviet Union back in '45.

Neither am I. To whom are you referring, because I never came near to suggesting that. If you can't express yourself in plain English, it ain't my concern.

But do keep my quote in your sig.- it's one less error of fact for you to make..

[molly bloom]

Next you'll be telling me that William III wasn't King of the Dutch.

I believe I have already corrected you on that mistake when you first called him king of the Dutch. I seemed to recall I pointed out that the United Provinces were still very much a republic. This of course led to a huge conniption fit on your part, and much blaming of the Dutch for not being 'real' republicans and generated even more errors on your part. Ah, it's instant nostalgia.....

Can you say he-red-it-ary? Real republics don't ditch their republic to make their own king. The whole point of the Stadtholder is that it was from the House of Orange and not the House of Habsburg. Trading one monarch for another. Why then - did they abandon the republican fiction and crown the House of Orange as King of the Dutch shortly after? The answer - they never really wanted a republic. They just wanted a local king. Hence the House of Orange.

It always gives me a good laugh when I re-read that nonsense. Thanks for that,Sister Bendy.

Except for the fact that they aren't Ukrainians, never have been Ukrainian (for one, they are Catholic), have a distinct area and for their entire history prior to Stalin lived in a different country.

Uh huh.

The Ruthenians along the borderland of the ancient Kingdom of Poland and the present boundary separating Austria from Russia proper are also called Ukrainians (u, at or near, and krai, the border or land composing the border), from the Ukraine, comprising the vast steppes or plains of Southern Russia extending into Galicia. In the Austro-Hungarian Empire the Ruthenians are separated from one another by the Carpathian Mountains, which leave one division of them in Galicia and the other in Hungary. The Ruthenians or Little Russians in Russia and Bukowina belong to the Greek Orthodox Church, whilst those of Galicia and Hungary are Greek Catholics in unity with the Holy See. For this reason the word Ruthenian has been generally used to indicate those of the race who are Catholics, and Little Russian those who are Greek Orthodox, although the terms are usually considered as fairly interchangeable.

It's in the Catholic Encyclopaedia- it must be true.

Ruthenian, also called Ruthene , any of those Ukrainians who were formerly Polish or Austrian and Austro-Hungarian subjects. The name is a Latinized form of the word Russian, but the Ruthenians are Ukrainians who, by accidents of history in the late Middle Ages, were absorbed into the territory of Lithuania, which in turn was united with Poland. The term Little Russians has also been applied to them. The upper-class Ruthenians in Galicia, Bukovina, and the Carpathian Mountains were assimilated into the conquering nations, whose language and Roman Catholic faith they adopted. The peasants sank into a state of great poverty; their Orthodox priests sought the protection of Rome. The pope accepted, and the Union of Brest-Litovsk (October 6–10, 1596) established a new “uniate church,” whereby the Ruthenians retained their Slavonic liturgy and most of the outward forms of the Greek Orthodox church while acknowledging the spiritual supremacy of the pope.

Encyclopaedia Britannica- possibly written by a non-Roman Catholic, so clearly biased and false !!!!!!!!

Umm, I'm not the one covering up for Stalin's atrocities.

Of course you aren't- your tiny mind is usually super over-worked ignoring any and all atrocities committed by or on behalf of the Roman Catholic Church or Roman Catholic states. By the way, where exactly am I, if it's me you mean, covering up Stalin's crimes ?

Ahh, more commie propaganda.

In non-Sister Bendy language- Ooops, made a boo boo, can't admit I got it wrong, and oh, damn, another book I haven't read.

Norman Davies:

As a pupil of AJP Taylor and the nephew of a well-known Lancastrian sportsman and broadcaster, Davies was always familiar with the worlds of publishing and the media. He emerged as a historical author with White Eagle, Red Star (1972) which was written during a research fellowship at St. Antony's College. he found his way into radio and later TV via the BBC World Service to which he made contributions relative to current affairs in the Soviet Block.

Davies' academic career centred on the School of Slavonic Studies, University of London, where he was successively Lecturer, Reader and Professor. A quarter of a century in London was supplemented by regular assignments abroad at Columbia, Mc Gill, Hokkaido, Stanford, Harvard, Adelaide and the ANU in Canberra. He was elected Fell of the British Academy in 1997.

The stay at Stanford was particularly eventful. It started with the prospective offer of an endowed chair and ended when the offer was mysteriously cancelled before it could be formalised by Board of Trustees. Stanford's decision, which contradicted the unanimous recommendation of it's own Search Committee, remained unsubstantiated for months, and since all grievance procedures were refused, became the subject of a lengthy but inconclusive law suit. It eventually emerged that an unnamed group of critics had taken offense at one chapter in Davies' prize-winning history of Poland, God's Playground (1981). Davies remembers the episode stoically - as evidence of academic small-mindedness and of fate awaiting anyone who confronts entrenched opinions and prejudices.

Nonetheless, the budding author surged ahead. After the collapse of Communism, God's Playground was adopted by Poland's Ministry of Education as compulsory reading for all history students in state schools and universities. Europe: A History (OUP, 1996) became a Number 1 best-seller in Britain and The Isles: A History (1999) confirmed Davies' reputation as an iconoclast. Microcosm (2000) written with Roger Moorhouse, presents the little known history of a Central European city, Wroclaw / Beslau; whilst Rising '44 (2003) has eclipsed all previous studies of the Warsaw Rising. According to the the author, Europe At War is bound to encounter turbulence.

Over the years, Norman Davies has received many honours. He was awarded the CMG in 2001 for 'services to history', and has collected several Polish distinctions including the Order of Merit. He is an honorary citizen of several cities, including Wroclaw: and the holder of numerous honorary degrees, most recently a D. Litt from Sussex.

http://www.normandavies.com/biography.html

So you're making my argument for me. Thanks, Molly.

I don't believe I am. If I were, it would be cogent, chock full o'quotes and reading recommendations and without major factual errors.

[molly bloom]

Sadly my fluency in moron leaves much to be desired.

Yes, because you're a terrible communicator, not because you're not fluent in the language.

[molly bloom]

My family was fortunate enough to have lived on the Polish side of the line where records were preserved. Those on the Russian side of the line have been less fortunate.

Well boo hoo. My grandmother and father narrowly escaped being blown apart by a German bomb in Coventry. You don't notice me making rambling error-strewn posts on that basis.

[Ben Kenobi]

To whom are you referring, because I never came near to suggesting that. If you can't express yourself in plain English, it ain't my concern.

When the Norwegian who doesn't speak English as a first language understands the argument perfectly well - it suggests that there's absolutely nothing wrong with the delivery of said argument. Perhaps it's time for a remedial course on English comprehension?

Encyclopaedia Britannica- possibly written by a non-Roman Catholic, so clearly biased and false !!!!!!!!

Again, Ruthenians have a distinct culture from Ukrainians today. They live in a different and distinct geographical area, were a part of Austria and Poland, and are Catholic.

[molly bloom]

When the Norwegian who doesn't speak English as a first language understands the argument perfectly well - it suggests that there's absolutely nothing wrong with the delivery of said argument. Perhaps it's time for a remedial course on English comprehension?

I doubt it- unless of course you mean on taking one yourself. After all, you seemed to have a great deal of difficulty understanding the meaning of 'heir apparent', 'fief' and that 'rulers' was plural. I'd say not understanding the difference between one and two is fairly basic.

Here's what you first said, in all its vagueness and lack of proper attribution (when did Churchill say those words ? In what context ? You haven't told us):

Churchill even admits that 'war with Soviet Union' is inadvisable thus settling for a crappy peace rather than actually liberating the people he set out to war to protect!

followed as an 'explanation' by this :

Against the Soviet Union?

and this :

Churchill himself set out to war to protect Poland.

I have it on good advice (Churchill himself) that in 1940 on becoming Prime Minister (by which time the British Empire was already at war with Nazi Germany) Churchill had but one aim, which he said made his life simple- to defeat Hitler.

He made this clear later:

( ... one aim and one single irrevocable purpose. We are resolved to destroy Hitler and every vestige of the Nazi regime. From this nothing will turn us. Nothing. We will never parley; we will never negotiate with Hitler or any of his gang. We shall fight him by land; we shall fight him by sea; we shall fight him in the air, until, with God's help, we have rid the earth of his shadow and liberated its people from his yoke.

He was being slightly disingenuous, because he wanted to preserve the British Empire and also the kind of society he had grown to maturity in. Well, one out of three isn't bad.

He also said :

We have offered to the Government of Soviet Russia any technical or economic assistance which is in our power and which is likely to be of service to them.

That's from a radio broadcast in 1941, June of that year. Can you guess what event he was referring to ?

[molly bloom]

Again, Ruthenians have a distinct culture from Ukrainians today. They live in a different and distinct geographical area, were a part of Austria and Poland, and are Catholic.

Oh, do things change between 1848, 1914, 1939, 1945 and say, 2013 ?

The Ruthenians along the borderland of the ancient Kingdom of Poland and the present boundary separating Austria from Russia proper are also called Ukrainians (u, at or near, and krai, the border or land composing the border), from the Ukraine, comprising the vast steppes or plains of Southern Russia extending into Galicia. In the Austro-Hungarian Empire the Ruthenians are separated from one another by the Carpathian Mountains, which leave one division of them in Galicia and the other in Hungary. The Ruthenians or Little Russians in Russia and Bukowina belong to the Greek Orthodox Church, whilst those of Galicia and Hungary are Greek Catholics in unity with the Holy See. For this reason the word Ruthenian has been generally used to indicate those of the race who are Catholics, and Little Russian those who are Greek Orthodox, although the terms are usually considered as fairly interchangeable

THAT'S THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPAEDIA AGAIN.

[Ben Kenobi]

For this reason the word Ruthenian has been generally used to indicate those of the race who are Catholics, and Little Russian those who are Greek Orthodox

Which is the formality I am using. What's the problem here with using Ruthenian to specific Catholic Galicians west of the Carpathians?

[Dr Strangelove]

Actually the term Ruthenian was originally used by Europeans using the Latin alphabet to refer to the ethnic inhabitants of areas which were originally parts of ancient Rus. After Russia became a power in its own right again the term became restricted to those peoples living in areas acquired by nations using the Latin alphabet, i.e., Poland and Austro-Hungary. When Poland disappeared that left only Austro-Hungary as a nation using the term Ruthenian to refer to one of its ethnic groups.

[molly bloom]

Actually the term Ruthenian was originally used by Europeans using the Latin alphabet to refer to the ethnic inhabitants of areas which were originally parts of ancient Rus. After Russia became a power in its own right again the term became restricted to those peoples living in areas acquired by nations using the Latin alphabet, i.e., Poland and Austro-Hungary. When Poland disappeared that left only Austro-Hungary as a nation using the term Ruthenian to refer to one of its ethnic groups.

And it was the Habsburg Empire that created the 'nationalist' notion in the Ruthenians- they were so worried about the Poles in Galicia linking up with the liberal/nationalists in Krakow and emigre Pole groups, that they needed a 'nationalist' counterweight. It helped that the Ruthenians/Ukrainians were still serfs until 1848 and that they'd recently had a peasants' revolt against their Polish overlords. They actually believed the Habsburg ruler was their protector...

And of course the Habsburgs also encouraged a South Slav nationalism- as a counterweight against the Magyars. And look how that ended up....