Armistice Day

[Dr Strangelove]

Vilnius the city? Absolutely. Vilnius the province? No. Belarusian? No. Principality of Pinsk? Yes - that's the last time this area was independent, and it did not incorporate this particular territory.

Ukrainian? Again - no. Not the western half in Galicia. The Ukraine is too far west thanks to Stalin.

Go look at a map you Yutz! Vilnius is now in Lithuania, (what used to be) Lemberg, Tarnpol, Volyhnia and Stansilaw are in Ukraine, Lida is in Belarus and Poleisa is divied up between Ukraine, Poland and Belarus! There's no sense asking the Russian Federation to give them back, they're not in possession of them. Meanwhile, what about Silesia, eastern Pomerania, Danzig, Poznan and southern East Prussia? Is Poland preparing to give those areas back to Germany?

It's still Polish land.

Not any more. Why not go all out and claim Lithuania, Belarus, and all of the eastern half of the Ukraine?

Umm, no, they weren't Ukrainian back then either. They were their own principality.

They were all areas that were Lithuanian before Lithuania merged with Poland to get the Roman Catholic Church to cease it's war of genocide.

Yes, unlike the Mongols who treated them with kindness.

...and before the Mongols they were Russian.

Yes - after they attacked the Bohemians which is why the Ordensritter were sent in the first place.

Bohemia is located in what is now the Czech Republic, which is all the way on the other side of Poland. You may be thinking of Masovia, a duchy in Poland, whose Duke undertook a number of unsuccessful campaigns against the Prussians. After failing he requested help from the Teutonic Order. Again, go look at a map.

[Ming]

Bleargh. Prussian as in the German settlers of Sambia, not the Duchy. It's been significant since at least the 13th century, under the Ordensritter, forming their HQ after Marienwerder, and later the core of Ducal Prussia.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
Nice try. You just can't admit it when you are wrong.

Your statement was "It was the Prussian capital from the 13th century onwards"

Not even close.

You should take some more history classes...

[Nikolai]

Remember folks, history is a very specialized subject. You get the basic world history, then you go deep down. I specialized in middle eastern history. Even then I don't know all middle eastern history down to the detail. Ask me about Norwegian missionary organizations and Norwegian news papers' presentation of the Egyptian Copts 2000-2010, otoh... That's the narrowness of a master in history.

[molly bloom]

Right, because Lemberg and Halich are all Polish cities today.

.

So what ? Clearly you're just as uninformed about this region's history as you are about Dutch and English history. Poles may have been a majority in some cities in Eastern Europe, but that didn't mean the cities were originally Polish, or were not regard by other nationalities (such as the Ukrainians/Ruthenians ) as their own.

Unfortunately people tend to drift out of rigidly demarcated 'ethnic' zones over the centuries, and this is why Poles could think of Wilno as being distinctly Polish, whereas Lithunaians think of Vilnius as being distinctively Lithuanian. The same goes for Belarussians too. Perhaps it's all just a bit too complicate for you- why not take up something less demanding, like, umm, macrame ?

Economically wise, they weren't.

Oh, so you just meant economically, did you ? How very typical of you.

I'm sure the Poles in Galicia preferred Russian communist rule to Austrian rule.

The Poles in Galicia were detested by their serfs (in the 19th Century it took the Year of Revolutions, 1848, to emancipate the Ruthenian serfs in Galicia) who pre-1848 had risen in a typical murderous peasants' revolt and killed Polish families en masse and burned manors and houses. The Austrians cynically granted the Ruthenians emancipation and encouraged Ruthenian nationalism, little realising the danger they were getting into. Oh, and equally cynically, they took the final independent bit of Poland left after the partitions- the free city of Krakow.

The Polish aristocrats in Galicia were thus fatally divided from the Polish liberals and nationalists in Krakow and Lodz, at a time when they could have wrested concessions from the Habsburgs.

To go to war with Russia?

Poland didn't go to war with 'Russia'- it fought the Bolsheviks under Marshal Tukhachevsky and defeated them. Between 100-150 000 Russian prisoners were taken, and as I've said, the westward march of the Bolsheviks was stopped.

Which was subsequently followed by Russian domination of both for nearly 50 years. Yeah, Poland came out the winner there

I know the history of the 20th Century thanks, and rather obviously better than you. Perhaps you could just refrain from mentioning the well-known parts of it and say why this somehow negates the movement for Polish nationalism, because as far as I can see, Poles in the 19th Century couldn't have foreseen the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact nor how two such diametrically opposed regimes could cooperate on another partition of Poland.

Why was war declared September of 1939? Roosevelt forgot this. Churchill did not.

Because Germany did not withdraw troops from Poland as asked.

I'm still waiting on a conservative position from your 'partner'.

He's been my partner since 1984- I'm not sure why you have a problem with his being my partner, or insist on putting it that way. If you have a particular bugbear about two men living together I suggest you get over it. We celebrated our anniversary two days ago, so chew on that.

[molly bloom]

Even Upper Silesia voted 60/40 to stay in Germany. .

And you'll find that the Czechs in 1848 regarded Silesia as part of the old Czech kingdom, just like Bohemia and Moravia.

Koenigsberg is about as German as it gets.

And the Teutonic Knights did an excellent job of ethnically cleansing ethnic Prussians and attempting to kill ethnic Lithuanians and Russians. So ?

[Dauphin]

You get the basic world history, then you go deep down.

Not if you're Ben. You get the basic history then you get made up.

[Dauphin]

the things you learn playing eu3

Imagine if Ben were the consultant historian for the EU series. :shudder:

[giblets]

Remember folks, history is a very specialized subject. You get the basic world history, then you go deep down. I specialized in middle eastern history. Even then I don't know all middle eastern history down to the detail. Ask me about Norwegian missionary organizations and Norwegian news papers' presentation of the Egyptian Copts 2000-2010, otoh... That's the narrowness of a master in history.

I think most history specialists have the sense to avoid commenting on historical subjects they don't know very well.

[rah]

Unfortunately Ben isn't like most.

[Ben Kenobi]

Go look at a map you Yutz! Vilnius is now in Lithuania, (what used to be) Lemberg, Tarnpol, Volyhnia and Stansilaw are in Ukraine, Lida is in Belarus and Poleisa is divied up between Ukraine, Poland and Belarus!

Yes, hail Stalin for this! That is the point.

There's no sense asking the Russian Federation to give them back, they're not in possession of them.

That they are in possession of it doesn't change the fact that they are still Polish territory.

Meanwhile, what about Silesia, eastern Pomerania, Danzig, Poznan and southern East Prussia? Is Poland preparing to give those areas back to Germany?

They should, for the same reason.

Not any more. Why not go all out and claim Lithuania, Belarus, and all of the eastern half of the Ukraine?

Because they aren't Polish territory?

They were all areas that were Lithuanian before Lithuania merged with Poland

So then the argument is that they are more Polish than anything else

to get the Roman Catholic Church to cease it's war of genocide.

Right - because the Pagans of the era were so peaceful. There's a reason the Knights were asked to come - to protect Christians in Bohemia.

...and before the Mongols they were Russian.

Not in any sense of the word....

Bohemia is located in what is now the Czech Republic, which is all the way on the other side of Poland.

And again - the Bohemians were the ones who summoned the Order to Kulmerland, to protect Christian settlers in the area who were attacked by pagans.

You may be thinking of Masovia

I was thinking of Bohemia. If I was thinking of Masovia I would have said so.

Again, go look at a map.

Again - the fact is that the Ordensritter devoted Koenigsberg to the Bohemian king because of his patronage.

[Ben Kenobi]

Your statement was "It was the Prussian capital from the 13th century onwards"

I notice that zero of the 'historians' here are calling to task the argument that Koenigsberg is as German as it gets.

You should take some more history classes...

Which is why I clarified and corrected my statement. I was trying to come up with a single word that meant 'german settlers of the area of Prussia', and just tossed out prussian for lack of a better word on the fly. Again - the point is that Koenigsberg has been German since the middle of the 13th century, and not only that a significant area in terms of the headquarters of the Ordensritter and later on Ducal Prussia. Anyone here contest this?

[Ben Kenobi]

And you'll find that the Czechs in 1848 regarded Silesia as part of the old Czech kingdom, just like Bohemia and Moravia.

And Kulmerland is not far from Silesia. Perhaps you should be talking to the folks attacking me for stating Bohemia?

Again, by the 20th century - the people of Upper Silesia voted - by free plebescite - to remain in Germany. Even Kattowice. If the principle of National self determination prevails - that means that the majority of Upper Silesia should never have been conceded to Poland. Now, I will concede that parts definitely wanted to go to Poland and that by the same token - these parts should have been transferred. But certainly not all of it - and compensation would have to be held from elsewhere to transfer Kattowice so as not to leave an enclave.

And the Teutonic Knights did an excellent job of ethnically cleansing ethnic Prussians and attempting to kill ethnic Lithuanians and Russians. So ?

That's what happens when you attack Christian settlers. Had they not done so - the Ordensritter (which was not native to the area!) would not have been called in and supported by the other German settlers and the Bohemians - who feared for their security.

Again - people seem to assume that borders were like they were today - where people couldn't cross them. This is hardly the case back in 13th century europe - especially when you consider the Mongol invasions from the east.

[giblets]

It's a meaningless, unverifiable claim. Is there a "Germanness" index that you can use to compare Konigsberg to places like Berlin and Munich? Are we measuring the Germanness of a city by how long Germans have lived there? That's the only interpretation I can think of that would make your mention of the fact that Konigsberg has been around since the 12th 13th century relevant, it also doesn't make Konigsberg "as German as it gets".

[Ben Kenobi]

So what ? Clearly you're just as uninformed about this region's history as you are about Dutch and English history.

Once again - the argument is, "you disagree with me - ergo you are uninformed. Hardly so.

Poles may have been a majority in some cities in Eastern Europe, but that didn't mean the cities were originally Polish, or were not regard by other nationalities (such as the Ukrainians/Ruthenians ) as their own.

That Stalin ethnically cleansed them changed the makeup of Eastern Europe drastically. Vilinius is the only one I can see remaining with Lithuania. The Ukrainians have no claim over Galicia, which is culturally very different from the rest. Same with the western half of what is not Belorussia - which has been Polish for a long time.

Unfortunately people tend to drift out of rigidly demarcated 'ethnic' zones over the centuries

Yes - Stalin's policy of ethnic cleansing tends to do that.

and this is why Poles could think of Wilno as being distinctly Polish, whereas Lithunaians think of Vilnius as being distinctively Lithuanian. The same goes for Belarussians too.

There's never been an independent principality in the region other than the Principality of Plock. Which again - didn't extend to the present borders. The current borders are an artifact of Yalta.

Oh, so you just meant economically, did you ? How very typical of you.

Well, yes. I see the First World war as generally a gigantic waste of time that resulted in a tremendous loss of men, and freedom in many countries of the world. It was not only beyond pointless - but resulted in the enslavement of most of eastern europe for 50 years. And for what?

The Poles in Galicia were detested by their serfs (in the 19th Century it took the Year of Revolutions, 1848, to emancipate the Ruthenian serfs in Galicia)

So the rank and file preferred Austrian rule to Polish rule. Thank you molly.

Poland didn't go to war with 'Russia'- it fought the Bolsheviks under Marshal Tukhachevsky and defeated them. Between 100-150 000 Russian prisoners were taken, and as I've said, the westward march of the Bolsheviks was stopped.

Umm, the Bolsheviks didn't declare war on Poland. Poland declared war on them. Perhaps you need to read up on why the Lithuanian Pilsudski - imprisoned and tortured by Russia might have a grudge to settle.

Poles in the 19th Century couldn't have foreseen the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact nor how two such diametrically opposed regimes could cooperate on another partition of Poland.

No - but the French in 1919 recognized that Versailles was a truce not a peace. I would argue that there was sufficient understanding after the war that there would be another war sparked to settle the unsettled issues of Versailles. The result was disastrous by Poland. I don't know if there was any understanding in Poland of this case, as I am unaware of anyone who said this after Versailles - but at least in France there were some that did.

Because Germany did not withdraw troops from Poland as asked.

Churchill even admits that 'war with Soviet Union' is inadvisable thus settling for a crappy peace rather than actually liberating the people he set out to war to protect! What exactly was gained in the east? Yalta was a betrayal.

He's been my partner since 1984- I'm not sure why you have a problem with his being my partner, or insist on putting it that way. If you have a particular bugbear about two men living together I suggest you get over it. We celebrated our anniversary two days ago, so chew on that.

Perhaps putting quotes around 'conservative' and 'partner' would mollify Molly?

[Ben Kenobi]

It's a meaningless, unverifiable claim.

Is it meaningless to argue that German was the majority language and that most of the settlers in Sambia and Koenigsberg were German? No. Is it unverifiable? Also no. Is it meaningless and unverifiable that this was true for most of the period from around 1250 to around 1950, or 700 years?

it also doesn't make Konigsberg "as German as it gets".

Ah. So you regard 700 years as being German insufficient. Well then - that makes all claims of a 'Russia' and 'Lithuania' and 'Ukraine' nonsensical.