Armistice Day

[molly bloom]

They were still second-class citizens in their own land, .

Uh, Poles under the new Polish government were second class citizens ? I don't think so.

and were subject to foreign domination which has only recently been lifted.

Oh right, so ignore all the clamour for a free independent Poland (which started right after the last partition in the 18th Century) and let Poland be divvied out still. I'm astonished at your attitude towards Polish nationalism, which has always had strong backing from the faith of the majority of Poles, Roman Catholicism. For someone who spends so much time getting history wrong and bellyaching about poor beleaguered Catholics, you show scant sympathy for the aspirations of generations of Catholic Poles.

The First World War did not change this.

Oh what a crock. Try talking to people whose parents can remember the Pilsudki/Paderewski governments- for all their faults they represented Polish people in their own land free for the first time since the 18th Century (excepting Bonaparte's creation) to govern themselves in their own language and with their own religion.

The time between the wars was just 20 years - and it is only just last year that their present existence has exceeded this period

And ? It's not like Polish nationalists could have predicted the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in the 19th Century, or even at the Treaty of Versailles. They're hardly to blame for Bolshevism or German National Socialism. Admittedly having a less Francophobic foreign minister on the eve of WW11 might have helped, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[QUOTE] [Perhaps the Poles will have their land returned to them that was stolen from them at Yalta. /QUOTE]

When Cuba gets back Guantanamo, probably.

[Ben Kenobi]

Uh, Poles under the new Polish government were second class citizens ? I don't think so.

Poles in areas ceded to Russia, absolutely they were second class citizens in their own land. Perhaps one day that will be rectified.

Oh right, so ignore all the clamour for a free independent Poland (which started right after the last partition in the 18th Century) and let Poland be divvied out still.

Poland has been divvied out, and wrongfully so. It remains divided, but oddly enough you don't care about that.

I'm astonished at your attitude towards Polish nationalism, which has always had strong backing from the faith of the majority of Poles, Roman Catholicism.

Why? I think they received a raw deal at Yalta. They were the only ally that actually lost territory. It took 50 years to rectify the Baltics, but Poland to this day has never been restored.

For someone who spends so much time getting history wrong and bellyaching about poor beleaguered Catholics, you show scant sympathy for the aspirations of generations of Catholic Poles.

Right, because I regard the decision of Pilsudski as sheer madness.

Oh what a crock. Try talking to people whose parents can remember the Pilsudki/Paderewski governments- for all their faults they represented Polish people in their own land free for the first time since the 18th Century (excepting Bonaparte's creation) to govern themselves in their own language and with their own religion.

And Pilsudski nearly drove them back to domination by the Russians, which eventually they did suffer after Yalta. They've only really been free for less time than between the wars.

And ? It's not like Polish nationalists could have predicted the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in the 19th Century, or even at the Treaty of Versailles. They're hardly to blame for Bolshevism or German National Socialism. Admittedly having a less Francophobic foreign minister on the eve of WW11 might have helped, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

The responsibility of the allies to Poland in 45 was to negotiate a better deal than 50 year domination by Russia. The whole war was fought to preserve Poland, and in the end, was a failure. It took 50 years to set right. Yalta ruined the entire rest of the war.

When Cuba gets back Guantanamo, probably.

Amazingly enough the communist thinks Yalta was a good deal for Poles and then has the temerity to attack me.

[molly bloom]

Poles in areas ceded to Russia, absolutely they were second class citizens in their own land.

Which cession didn't occur until post-1945, not in 1919. Not into dates much obviously.

Poland has been divvied out, and wrongfully so. It remains divided, but oddly enough you don't care about that.

Oh get off your high horse, Mr Sanctimony. You ludicrously claim that independent Poles weren't better off in 1919 than they were before- yet histories of the region refer to Russification programmes and privileges afforded to Russian speakers and Orthodox Christians. Austria-Hungary cynically played off Ruthenians against Poles and I can't recall the German Empire being overly lavish with celebrations of Polish culture.

Right, because I regard the decision of Pilsudski as sheer madness.

What decision ?

And Pilsudski nearly drove them back to domination by the Russians, which eventually they did suffer after Yalta.

Or in other words, the Poles in the 'Miracle on the Vistula' stopped the westward expansion of the Bolsheviks and inadvertently secured an independent (non-Russian dominated) Lithuania. Clearly the sequence events happen in matters not a lot to you...

The whole war was fought to preserve Poland,

I thought it was fought to prevent further German expansion, which isn't the same thing at all.

Amazingly enough the communist thinks Yalta was a good deal for Poles and then has the temerity to attack me.

I'm sorry, are you on drugs ? Because if you imagine I'm a communist you really must be. And if I ever said that the outcome of Yalta was a good thing for the Poles you should be able to find it in a post of mine.

Rather than, as usual, make it up yourself.

[Ben Kenobi]

Which cession didn't occur until post-1945, not in 1919. Not into dates much obviously.

Right, because Lemberg and Halich are all Polish cities today.

Oh get off your high horse, Mr Sanctimony. You ludicrously claim that independent Poles weren't better off in 1919 than they were before

Economically wise, they weren't. Nobody in europe was better off in 1919 than they were in 1913.

Austria-Hungary cynically played off Ruthenians against Poles and I can't recall the German Empire being overly lavish with celebrations of Polish culture.

I'm sure the Poles in Galicia preferred Russian communist rule to Austrian rule.

What decision ?

To go to war with Russia?

Or in other words, the Poles in the 'Miracle on the Vistula' stopped the westward expansion of the Bolsheviks and inadvertently secured an independent (non-Russian dominated) Lithuania. Clearly the sequence events happen in matters not a lot to you...

Which was subsequently followed by Russian domination of both for nearly 50 years. Yeah, Poland came out the winner there.

I thought it was fought to prevent further German expansion, which isn't the same thing at all.

Why was war declared September of 1939? Roosevelt forgot this. Churchill did not.

I'm sorry, are you on drugs ? Because if you imagine I'm a communist you really must be.

I'm still waiting on a conservative position from your 'partner'.

[Dr Strangelove]

What areas with a Polish majority population are still under Russian rule today?

[Ben Kenobi]

What areas with a Polish majority population are still under Russia rule today?

Poland lost a lot of land at Yalta. Barely half of their 1919 land was returned to them. The lost provinces were Vilinius, Lida, Polesia, Volhynia, Tarnopol, Lemberg, Stanislav. It's not Polish today because Stalin ethnically cleansed and expelled the Poles. Legally, it doesn't change the fact that this was all polish land.

[giblets]

And the Soviets ethnically cleansed German lands and handed them to the Poles... how thoughtful.

[regexcellent]

The reality is that places like Silesia were not really German and not really Polish...eastern Europe has never been all that ethnically homogeneous anywhere. Until World War II the Volga River basin had a ton of Germans. Kaliningrad used to be Konigsberg and had an assortment of Germans, Poles, and Lithuanians. Danzig (now Gdansk) was German and Polish.

[Ben Kenobi]

The reality is that places like Silesia were not really German and not really Polish

Even Upper Silesia voted 60/40 to stay in Germany. By national self-determination, this is incorrect. Most saw themselves as German and wanted to stay in Germany. Sure, certain sections went majority Pole - but even Katowice wanted to stay in Germany.

Kaliningrad used to be Konigsberg and had an assortment of Germans, Poles, and Lithuanians.

Koenigsberg is about as German as it gets. It was the Prussian capital from the 13th century onwards. Again - Stalin ethnically cleansed most of eastern Europe. Plebescites held in OstPrueben, in Allenstein, went 97 percent to stay in Germany, and 92 percent in Marienwerder.

Arguing that these areas weren't German after the first world war bears little resemblence to the facts.

[giblets]

Koenigsberg is about as German as it gets. It was the Prussian capital from the 12th century onwards.

Königsberg was founded in 1255

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Königsberg

lol

[Nikolai]

Prussia didn't exist in the 12th century. Sure you didn't write the wrong number there mate?

[Dr Strangelove]

Poland lost a lot of land at Yalta. Barely half of their 1919 land was returned to them. The lost provinces were Vilinius, Lida, Polesia, Volhynia, Tarnopol, Lemberg, Stanislav. It's not Polish today because Stalin ethnically cleansed and expelled the Poles. Legally, it doesn't change the fact that this was all polish land.

They're not Russian today either, they're Lithuanian, Belorussian and Ukranian. Go pound on their doors and demand the land back. Many of them weren't Polish originally either. Vilnius was mostly Jewish. Lemberg, Tarnpol, and Volhynia were Ukranian until the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth took them from the Mongols and forced the population into slavery and the Catholic church.
The original Prussians weren't German, they were tribes that spoke a Baltic language. They were exterminated by the Teutonic Knights.

[regexcellent]

the things you learn playing eu3

[Ben Kenobi]

Prussia didn't exist in the 12th century. Sure you didn't write the wrong number there mate?

Bleargh. Prussian as in the German settlers of Sambia, not the Duchy. It's been significant since at least the 13th century, under the Ordensritter, forming their HQ after Marienwerder, and later the core of Ducal Prussia.

It's about as German as it gets.

[Ben Kenobi]

They're not Russian today either, they're Lithuanian, Belorussian and Ukranian.

Vilnius the city? Absolutely. Vilnius the province? No. Belarusian? No. Principality of Pinsk? Yes - that's the last time this area was independent, and it did not incorporate this particular territory.

Ukrainian? Again - no. Not the western half in Galicia. The Ukraine is too far west thanks to Stalin.

Go pound on their doors and demand the land back.

It's still Polish land.

Many of them weren't Polish originally either. Vilnius was mostly Jewish. Lemberg, Tarnpol, and Volhynia were Ukranian

Umm, no, they weren't Ukrainian back then either. They were their own principality.

forced the population into slavery and the Catholic church.

Yes, unlike the Mongols who treated them with kindness.

The original Prussians weren't German, they were tribes that spoke a Baltic language. They were exterminated by the Teutonic Knights.

Yes - after they attacked the Bohemians which is why the Ordensritter were sent in the first place.