Now you see, this is homophobic, and it makes Christianity look bad, and I feel ashamed by association.

[mrmitchell]

Will Planned parenthood turn away prolife volunteers?

Will atheist volunteers yell at the soup kitchen guests and tell them they're hellbound for murdering those defenseless cans of Campbell's?

[mrmitchell]

Imran and others, maybe I missed something, but why are we even arguing about what Paul did before he converted? It only means he's really for real just as much as any other persecutor who has flipped sides. From my perspective this is an argument that only works if you're already convinced.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Imran and others, maybe I missed something, but why are we even arguing about what Paul did before he converted? It only means he's really for real just as much as any other persecutor who has flipped sides. From my perspective this is an argument that only works if you're already convinced.

Berz indicated that he though Paul wasn't a fanatic until he had converted. I was indicated that something MUST have happened to change him so dramatically.

[Ben Kenobi]

Will atheist volunteers yell at the soup kitchen guests and tell them they're hellbound for murdering those defenseless cans of Campbell's?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=293_L4x0H7I

[Berzerker]

So you believe homosexuality is sinful because Christ said, "he made them male and female, and for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife?"

No, he was responding to a question about divorce, not homosexuality - Jesus dont like it when men dump their wives and he laid the blame on the Mosaic law that allowed it

Should I read his comment about divorce and conclude not marrying is sinful?

Berz, when Ben is making more sense than you, you may want to look again at you arguments.

If you don't believe Paul was divinely inspired in his letters to churches, why do you believe the Gospel writers were? What's the difference? Why are the 4 Gospels, written 40-60 years after Jesus's death more authoritative than letters by Paul written 20-40 years after Jesus's death?

I dont know that they are, thats why I explained how I read the NT - I look for commonalities and build on them. Once a pattern evolves I have a framework to deal with other claims made in his name. Can you see Jesus standing in a church telling women to keep quiet and ask their husbands later at home? No, that was Paul's bias. Besides, a nagging wife was Adam's curse - telling the Mrs to shut up is sinful

Actually yes. Why in the Hell would you read a text written 2,000 years ago as if it was written in the 21st Century? It's why I equate you to the fundamentalists. You have absolutely no knowledge, or care, for historical context that the letters were written (neither do you care about literary context either). I mean 100 years ago, women couldn't vote in the United States, but you expect for someone living 2000 years ago to be a modern feminist - even though he lifts up women apostles, deacons, messengers, etc., which is mindboggling progressive for his time period. It'd be like someone during the American Revolution proposing equal rights for women (and even that is far too tame of a comparison).

And while Catholics, Orthodox, and some Protestants disagree with how far I think Paul went on affirming women, even their view on what Paul said was super progressive for 1st Century Palestine.

Did Jesus tell women to keep quiet in church or did Jesus tell Paul to tell women to keep quiet in church? Is your savior a hypocritical, sexist pig?

Berz indicated that he though Paul wasn't a fanatic until he had converted. I was indicated that something MUST have happened to change him so dramatically.

a religious fanatic, and I still dont know how religious he was before the conversion.

[The Mad Monk]

Women are silent in most conservative and all orthodox synagogues; did Jesus tell them to not be?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Women are silent in most conservative and all orthodox synagogues; did Jesus tell them to not be?

Obviously that's implied .

[Imran Siddiqui]

Did Jesus tell women to keep quiet in church or did Jesus tell Paul to tell women to keep quiet in church? Is your savior a hypocritical, sexist pig?

My Lord doesn't give people more than they can handle and thinks in the long run. Which is why He didn't stir the Spirit against slavery until humanity was ready to receive it, but did plant the seeds (Paul's admonition for masters to treat slaves fairly was radically progressive in those days).

My Lord is not one who goes too fast, causing things to fail and crumble rather than build slowly with firm foundation.

And furthermore, my Lord is not merely MY savior, but Savior of the World and all of Creation.

a religious fanatic, and I still dont know how religious he was before the conversion.

Because killing people in the name of faith is... moderate?

[Ben Kenobi]

he was responding to a question about divorce, not homosexuality

Ah. So when Christ explicitly says so you still don't follow it. So it's got nothing to do with Paul, and everything to do with you. You don't believe you should follow either Paul or Christ when you disagree.

[Berzerker]

Because killing people in the name of faith is... moderate?

I dont know that Paul was killing Christians because of faith (in whom?). He was a roman citizen killing Christians on behalf of the Jewish state. So what wonders has the seed of keeping women quiet in church produced?

Ah. So when Christ explicitly says so you still don't follow it. So it's got nothing to do with Paul, and everything to do with you. You don't believe you should follow either Paul or Christ when you disagree.

I dont disagree with what Jesus said, I disagree with your interpretation. Men shouldn't dump their wives, that doesn't mean homosexuality, polygamy, and not marrying are sinful. You think the first 2 are sinful but not the third while accusing me of picking and choosing.

Kinda strange you think Jesus was explicit about things he didn't even mention

[kentonio]

So the point is that it's ok when Atheists turn away Christians, but the inverse is not ok. Gotcha.

Provide some evidence of Atheists turning away Christians from soup kitchens, or STFU.

I think Christians should be more picky, not less picky, when they run their missions. Want to help? Become a Christian. Don't like that - start your own food bank.

Obviously you do, because you're a horrible human being.

Why doesn't planned parenthood have prolife volunteers since they state their mission is more than just abortion?

Provide some evidence of prolife people volunteering to work at PP, and being turned away, or STFU.

[Ben Kenobi]

I dont disagree with what Jesus said, I disagree with your interpretation. Men shouldn't dump their wives, that doesn't mean homosexuality, polygamy, and not marrying are sinful. You think the first 2 are sinful but not the third while accusing me of picking and choosing.

Kinda strange you think Jesus was explicit about things he didn't even mention

I'm not quite sure how Jesus saying, "he made them male and female" condones marriage outside of one man and one woman. Just the opposite in fact.

And it's not my interpretation either, Berz. Can you please stop with that? You make it sound like I invented this whole cloth. Are you arguing that this isn't the interpretation of the Catholic church? I'm basically reciting the catechism at you here.

[Ben Kenobi]

Obviously you do, because you're a horrible human being.

What happens is this. Atheists see Christians helping other people. They get pissy at this, so they try to get involved and shat all over it. Then they get pissy when they get told that their help is neither wanted nor desired.

Hey, here's a clue - atheist. It isn't all about you. It's supposed to be about the folks in the mission.

You want to help with a Christian mission - become Christian.

Provide some evidence of prolife people volunteering to work at PP, and being turned away, or STFU.

So you admit then that there are no prolifers working as volunteers for PP. I rest my case.

[Sava]

As a Christian, I think we should be more picky about who we allow in the religion. Crazy bigots shouldn't be invited.

[Ben Kenobi]

Crazy bigots shouldn't be invited.

Everybody's invited. Even liberals.