Now you see, this is homophobic, and it makes Christianity look bad, and I feel ashamed by association.

[Berzerker]

So explanation of a passage dealing with a similar issue doesn't mean anything?

Anything? Sure, it means you responded to my question with something you think is similar

It's like you think Paul only wrote the 1st Letter to the Corinthians and that's it. Also my references to Paul talking about women to speak on his letters means nothing either.

I didn't ask if Paul let a woman carry his letters, I asked about Paul telling women to keep quiet in church

the view of this Professor also indicates some of the context in which Paul is speaking - where women weren't allowed to speak in public at all - and in the aspect of his writing a letter to a specific person for a specific purpose

And Jesus told women to keep quiet in church or Jesus told Paul to tell us?

As for 1 Corinthians 7:1, your reading comprehension is abysmal. Read the verse again:

It is good for a man not to have sexual relations is in quotes... referring to the "matters you wrote about", ie, the person Paul is responding to.

I know Paul was responding to an inquiry, so what? And according to Paul its good for a man to not have sex with women, but monogamous marriage is allowed because of (worse?) sexual immorality. I didn't ask about Paul's view of marriage, just what he thought about sex

You also realize if you are going to use the NT apocrypha of Acts of Paul and Thecla, you'll have to acknowledge the fact that Thecla claims she has the right to preach and baptize and Paul does not reprove her or dispute it.

Just so she doesn't do it in church

[Imran Siddiqui]

Jeez Louise, you are just as bad as fundamentalists. Higher Biblical Criticism is something that exists and has existed.

As pointed out, the woman carrying his letter (Pheobe) would be READING IT OUT LOUD in church - you can't really keep quiet during that. And later in Romans 16 he sends greats to Junia, who is prominent among the apostles (apostles being messengers of God) Also, some later Bishops like Tertullian didn't like Acts of Paul and Acts of Paul and Thecla because he felt Paul was promoting female priests.

Oh, and

4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Yep, he was really anti-sex.

Furthermore, I don't think Paul preached much in churches himself.

[Berzerker]

Jeez Louise, you are just as bad as fundamentalists. Higher Biblical Criticism is something that exists and has existed.

As pointed out, the woman carrying his letter (Pheobe) would be READING IT OUT LOUD in church - you can't really keep quiet during that. And later in Romans 16 he sends greats to Junia, who is prominent among the apostles (apostles being messengers of God) Also, some later Bishops like Tertullian didn't like Acts of Paul and Acts of Paul and Thecla because he felt Paul was promoting female priests.

Oh, and


Yep, he was really anti-sex.

Furthermore, I don't think Paul preached much in churches himself.

Where in #178 did you or Paul say she was to read letters out loud in church? And Paul does say its good for a man not to have sex with women but that monogamous marriage is allowed - as a concession - because of sexual immorality

women are to keep quiet in church and wait to ask their husbands if they have any questions

did Jesus say that or did Jesus tell Paul to say it?

[Ben Kenobi]

Because atheists are obviousy morally opposed to poor people having food.

So the point is that it's ok when Atheists turn away Christians, but the inverse is not ok. Gotcha.

I think Christians should be more picky, not less picky, when they run their missions. Want to help? Become a Christian. Don't like that - start your own food bank.

[Ben Kenobi]

Jesus tell Paul to say it?

Question for you, Berz. At what point do you think Paul starts lying? Before or after his conversion?

[Imran Siddiqui]

What else would a messenger do with a letter intended for a congregation? I'm sure you've heard of the common phrase "don't kill the messenger" - because the messenger is the one who reads what was written.

Paul does NOT saying it is good for a man not to have sex with women - quoting someone is not advocating what they are saying. The previous chapter, Paul is speaking of sexual immorality, ie, having sex with prostitutes. Therefore, he returns to it again to stress marriage partners need be faithful to each other. I'm sure Paul thinks it is easier to resist sexual temptation like he is doing and, mind, how Jesus Himself did (and preached about - whoever has lust in their heart is as bad as the adulterer). But he does not disdain marriage - as stated in Timothy passage above, he dislikes those who forbid marriage.

The disruptive women are to keep quiet and ask their husbands at home if they have any questions was written by Paul, divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit, to answer the question posed to him. So, in essence, both combined to say it.

Of course, if one was to follow Jewish custom at the time, women wouldn't have even been allowed to worship with the men - that in itself was highly progressive for the era.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's like you don't really know what you are talking about when it comes to Paul

Sokoth, his eyes uncovered.

[giblets]

So the point is that it's ok when Atheists turn away Christians, but the inverse is not ok. Gotcha.

I think Christians should be more picky, not less picky, when they run their missions. Want to help? Become a Christian. Don't like that - start your own food bank.

So much for helping people in need... way to show Christian compassion.

[Berzerker]

Question for you, Berz. At what point do you think Paul starts lying? Before or after his conversion?

I'm not accusing Paul of lying, I'm challenging the notion he speaks for Jesus with his every utterance. I'll ask again: did Jesus tell women they are to keep quiet in church or did Jesus tell Paul to say that?

What else would a messenger do with a letter intended for a congregation?

Give it to the priests... Your post doesn't say Paul told her to read it before the congregation in church so they can ask questions, not that the female members of the congregation could ask questions anyway because Paul tells them to keep quiet.

Paul does NOT saying it is good for a man not to have sex with women - quoting someone is not advocating what they are saying.

He wasn't quoting them, he was telling them its good for a man not to touch a woman but marriage is allowed as a concession because of sexual immorality

The previous chapter, Paul is speaking of sexual immorality, ie, having sex with prostitutes. Therefore, he returns to it again to stress marriage partners need be faithful to each other. I'm sure Paul thinks it is easier to resist sexual temptation like he is doing and, mind, how Jesus Himself did (and preached about - whoever has lust in their heart is as bad as the adulterer). But he does not disdain marriage - as stated in Timothy passage above, he dislikes those who forbid marriage.

He did say it, I quoted him... And I didn't say he disdained marriage.

The disruptive women are to keep quiet and ask their husbands at home

He's such a saint, had Paul been Pauline she might have been telling disruptive men to keep quiet in church and ask their wives when they get home.

[Ben Kenobi]

So much for helping people in need... way to show Christian compassion.

Why doesn't planned parenthood have prolife volunteers since they state their mission is more than just abortion?

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm not accusing Paul of lying, I'm challenging the notion he speaks for Jesus with his every utterance

So no, but yes? C'mon Berz.

You can't just pick and choose.

[Berzerker]

huh?

where'd I say Paul was lying?

and I'm picking and choosing based on what is attributed to Jesus, if Paul said and did things outside of those parameters I'm inclined to believe he's no longer speaking for Jesus

[Ben Kenobi]

and I'm picking and choosing based on what is attributed to Jesus, if Paul said and did things outside of those parameters I'm inclined to believe he's no longer speaking for Jesus

So you believe homosexuality is sinful because Christ said, "he made them male and female, and for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife?"

[Imran Siddiqui]

Berz, when Ben is making more sense than you, you may want to look again at you arguments.

If you don't believe Paul was divinely inspired in his letters to churches, why do you believe the Gospel writers were? What's the difference? Why are the 4 Gospels, written 40-60 years after Jesus's death more authoritative than letters by Paul written 20-40 years after Jesus's death?

He's such a saint

Actually yes. Why in the Hell would you read a text written 2,000 years ago as if it was written in the 21st Century? It's why I equate you to the fundamentalists. You have absolutely no knowledge, or care, for historical context that the letters were written (neither do you care about literary context either). I mean 100 years ago, women couldn't vote in the United States, but you expect for someone living 2000 years ago to be a modern feminist - even though he lifts up women apostles, deacons, messengers, etc., which is mindboggling progressive for his time period. It'd be like someone during the American Revolution proposing equal rights for women (and even that is far too tame of a comparison).

And while Catholics, Orthodox, and some Protestants disagree with how far I think Paul went on affirming women, even their view on what Paul said was super progressive for 1st Century Palestine.

[mrmitchell]

Something I learned from this thread: It is seemingly normal to tip pizza delivery guys over the pond. Here we tip in restaurants.

Everybody tips everybody all the time in the US. I've seen people tip ordinary retail cashiers (albeit only a few times).