The Gold Plated Ambulance

[Ben Kenobi]

Also can we please try to relate the Silmarillion to free markets and health care?

Sure. Melkor's desire to control all resulted in a lessening of his powers such that he was overcome by Ungoliant. It also doomed his realm to stagnation and atrophy which was eventually overcome.

Also - the destruction of Numenor because they sought to avoid death, plenty of stuff there about the need for free markets.

[kentonio]

I specifically said the period from 1914 onwards, which encompasses his experience in the first world war, which he goes on to specifically cite as inspiration for the story.

If you're going to claim a cite, supply it.

[Ben Kenobi]

Stop pretending this has any relevance.

You're aghast because I would seek a woman who loves me just as much as Edith did Tolkein? Tolkein was a good husband. I hope to do as well as he.

All your LOTR reference showed is that you have the emotional maturity of a 13 year old girl. If you'd ever actually lived with a woman, you'd realize quote how ridiculous you sound.

Ridiculous indeed, to actually love and risk being loved. I suggest reading his actual account. It's quite touching.

Please stop lying. Elok is quote correct that Tolkien denied any link.

Elok does the same thing most of you do. Lie about something, misrepresent what I actually said, and then misquote whatever source to exclude the decisive statement. It's the complete package. However, we're well within the area of my expertise now.

I suggest you read up on the literature, and familiarize yourself with the time period before commenting on it and on Tolkein.

[Ben Kenobi]

If you're going to claim a cite, supply it.

It's already been cited. And I did say from 1914 onwards. Which makes perfect sense, especially if you've studied some of Sassoon or Waugh, or any of the literature coming from Tolkein's generation.

[kentonio]

You're aghast because I would seek a woman who loves me just as much as Edith did Tolkein? Tolkein was a good husband. I hope to do as well as he.

Ridiculous indeed, to actually love and risk being loved. I suggest reading his actual account. It's quite touching.

Yes ridiculous, and with all the weight of a 13 year old girl basing her impressions on true love based on the Twilight series of novels. Real requited love is so much more infinitely complicated that the children's version which you have stuck in your head.

Elok does the same thing most of you do. Lie about something, misrepresent what I actually said, and then misquote whatever source to exclude the decisive statement. It's the complete package. However, we're well within the area of my expertise now.

Actually I noticed after posting that you'd specifically mentioned WW1, and so removed that from my post as it was well inside the edit time limit. I'm also happy to openly withdraw it. That's what grown ups do when they make a mistake, you should try it sometime.

[kentonio]

I specifically said the period from 1914 onwards, which encompasses his experience in the first world war, which he goes on to specifically cite as inspiration for the story.

One has indeed personally to come under the shadow of war to feel fully its oppression; but as the years go by it seems now often forgotten that to be caught in youth by 1914 was no less hideous an experience than to be involved in 1939 and the following years. By 1918 all but one of my close friends were dead.

In what way, shape or form does that 'specifically cite as inspiration for the story'?

[Ben Kenobi]

In what way, shape or form does that 'specifically cite as inspiration for the story'?

Most would consider the engraving of 'Luthien' under Edith's name on their tombstone sufficient proof thereof.

Yes ridiculous, and with all the weight of a 13 year old girl basing her impressions on true love based on the Twilight series of novels.

How is the story of Beren and Luthien one of love, unrequited? Beren sets out to find the Simarils. Luthien insists that she accompany him(!), and not only do they succeed, through guile and subterfuge - they also fail by trying to cut off two. They also fail to secure the one that they had, and the result is, even so - the destruction of their homeland and she still marries him. You need to actually read the story sometime.

Real requited love is so much more infinitely complicated that the children's version which you have stuck in your head.

Edith and Tolkein were married for what? 55 years? You don't have the simplest clue about what you are talking about.

Actually I noticed after posting that you'd specifically mentioned WW1, and so removed that from my post as it was well inside the edit time limit. I'm also happy to openly withdraw it. That's what grown ups do when they make a mistake, you should try it sometime.

Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to do that. I'm not trying to snow you under here. I think there is a significant and substantial reason behind what I posted, and that includes the stuff about Beren and Luthien. It's a good story.

[Jaguar]

You are criminally retarded.

That's not nice.

[Jaguar]

In general, it's better to be nice. That sort of language reflects more poorly on Sava than on Ben.

[rah]

Typical Ben. While doing his normal lying and just being wrong about a thread topic, diverting it to a irrelevant topic that he actually has some knowledge of so he can claim that he is right about something.

And for the record
Despite his constant denials about "LOTR is an allegory for WWII" thing, anyone that doesn't notice it and asks about it, is an idiot. (or just doesn't know anything about WWII)

Now can we get back on topic. If you want a LOTR thread, please start one.

[Elok]

Tolkien may deny but who's to say he had to consciously think of the metaphor in order for it to apply as such?

Entirely possible, but in the lack of actual support from the author this frequently degenerates into a game of "what can we read into this?" You can generally say that Tolkien's life experiences had a definite impact on his writing--that's obvious--but it's not terribly hard for a sufficiently clever person to draw parallels and, in the absence of authorial intent, those parallels show nothing except that a parallel can be drawn.

(yes, Tolkien did compare his relationship with his wife to Beren and Luthien, but his foreword to LOTR goes into exhaustive detail about how far he thinks it's fair to go)

Also can we please try to relate the Silmarillion to free markets and health care?

Well, the orcs are subverted elves, tortured and twisted into subservience. The process results in a clearly inferior product; in their first battle, actual elves butcher them by the thousands despite being outnumbered. Clearly, trying to make individuals act en masse against their own individual judgment is no good.

[DinoDoc]

And for the record
Despite his constant denials about "LOTR is an allegory for WWII" thing, anyone that doesn't notice it and asks about it, is an idiot. (or just doesn't know anything about WWII)

Now can we get back on topic. If you want a LOTR thread, please start one.

[Elok]

Now can we get back on topic. If you want a LOTR thread, please start one.

Which topic? This thread has had several, and the last (before LOTR) was pretty daft.

[Ben Kenobi]

diverting it to a irrelevant topic that he actually has some knowledge of so he can claim that he is right about something.

Fantastic praise from rah. Also - this is a much better topic than the first threadjack.

[Ben Kenobi]

Which topic? This thread has had several, and the last (before LOTR) was pretty daft.

Free markets are awesome and so is Tolkien.