The Gold Plated Ambulance

[Ben Kenobi]

your duty is to wait the entirety of your life for someone presumed dead?

Yes I would

if you dont expect that of your wife how can you expect it of Schiavo?

His situation is not the same as your hypothetical.

Terri was presumed dead

Which is why they prevented people from feeding her?

and you can speak for her, you already did - she wouldn't expect (or want) that from another person either.

You just spoke for her saying, "she would obviously agree with me". Yet, there isn't a shred of evidence this is so.

[Berzerker]

why do you put quotes around words nobody but you said?

why would you wait the remainder of your life for someone presumed dead?

and there is evidence, her husband said they talked about it and she wouldn't want to be kept alive

I have no reason to think she was a selfish person, I have no problem believing she'd want her loved one to be happy

[Ben Kenobi]

why would you wait the remainder of your life for someone presumed dead?

That's a good question. It's how I feel about love and how I would feel about a woman who said yes to me - that I would be both grateful and loyal to her for as long as I live. Beren didn't love without Luthien - and neither did Arwen for Aragorn.

her husband said they talked about it and she wouldn't want to be kept alive

Where's the piece of paper of her leaving instructions in her will. Consent is important and 'her husband said' is not the same as actual evidence establishing that yes in fact she did want this. I find it staggering that those who are basing their whole argument around perceived 'consent' turn around and say that 'consent' is not really necessary.

Do you not find this chilling that one man can go and state that x wanted to die and then proceed to kill them, lacking any documentation whatsoever to prove it?

I have no reason to think she was a selfish person

You think it's selfish for a husband or wife to want their husband or wife to remain faithful to them while they are alive?

, I have no problem believing she'd want her loved one to be happy

Cool beans. I have no problem believing she'd want her husband to remain faithful to her.

[kentonio]

I'm sure she just 'fell down the stairs', just like she fell and gave herself a black eye. It happens all the time you know.

Please provide some evidence that Mrs Schiavo fell down some stairs and that her injuries were caused as a result of that.

Where's the piece of paper of her leaving instructions in her will. Consent is important and 'her husband said' is not the same as actual evidence establishing that yes in fact she did want this. I find it staggering that those who are basing their whole argument around perceived 'consent' turn around and say that 'consent' is not really necessary.

Do you not find this chilling that one man can go and state that x wanted to die and then proceed to kill them, lacking any documentation whatsoever to prove it?

Except it wasn't just his testimony, his brother Scott Schiavo and their sister-in-law Joan Schiavo also testified that they'd heard Mrs Schaivo say the same on two different occasions. Obviously you will claim they are lying too, but as a court found their testimony credible, it really doesn't matter a damn what you think.

That's a good question. It's how I feel about love and how I would feel about a woman who said yes to me - that I would be both grateful and loyal to her for as long as I live. Beren didn't love without Luthien - and neither did Arwen for Aragorn.

And there we have it folks, Ben's grasp on relationships is cribbed directly from Lord of the Rings.

[Elok]

AND the Silmarillion, TYVM.

[Ben Kenobi]

Please provide some evidence that Mrs Schiavo fell down some stairs and that her injuries were caused as a result of that.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2003-11-18/news/was-terri-schiavo-beaten-in-1990/

Baden had now seen a 1991 bone-scan report that cast considerable doubt on a claim in Michael Schiavo's successful medical malpractice suit, that Terri's brain injury was caused by a potassium imbalance that led to a heart attack depriving her brain of oxygen.

Dr. Baden, who has written three books on forensic pathology, told Van Susteren: "It's extremely rare for a 20-year-old to have a cardiac arrest from low potassium who has no other diseases . . . which she doesn't have. . . . The reason that she's in the state she's in is because there was a period of time, maybe five or eight minutes, when not enough oxygen was going to her brain. That can happen because the heart stops for five or eight minutes, but she had a healthy heart from what we can see."

[b]Dr. Baden then addressed the 1991 bone-scan report on Terri Schiavo, which was completed on March 5 of that year by Dr. W. Campbell Walker in order to "evaluate for trauma" that may have been caused by a suspected "closed head injury." In the report, Walker wrote:

"This patient has a history of trauma. The presumption is that the other multiple areas of trauma also relate to previous trauma." (Emphasis added).

Here we get to what focused Dr. Baden's attention. On cnsnews.com, Jeff Johnson reported, "Walker listed apparent injuries to the ribs, thoracic vertebrae, both sacroiliac joints, both ankles and both knees."

In his interview with Greta Van Susteren, Dr. Baden noted "that the bone scan describes her having a head injury . . . and head injury can lead to the 'vegetative state' that Mrs. Schiavo is in now."

My bolds.

Except it wasn't just his testimony, his brother Scott Schiavo and their sister-in-law Joan Schiavo also testified that they'd heard Mrs Schaivo say the same on two different occasions. Obviously you will claim they are lying too, but as a court found their testimony credible, it really doesn't matter a damn what you think.

Lacking any actual 'consent' in the form of prior written documentation, I would find this insufficient proof that she actually desired such a thing.

And there we have it folks, Ben's grasp on relationships is cribbed directly from Lord of the Rings.

Psst, it's the "Simarillion". And if you don't see the parallels between the 'War of the Rings' and the period from 1914 to 1945, I don't know what to say. Fiction is cribbed directly from the real world and often goes on to further influence the real world.



This is why. It was a love letter and a love poem he wrote for his wife, Edith. I don't often encounter someone these days who believes as I do, but Tolkein was a hopeless romantic. And so am I.

[Elok]

Tolkien explicitly denied the whole "LOTR is an allegory for WWII" thing. Not that it's at all relevant to the Schiavo case.

[Zevico]

Tolkien may deny but who's to say he had to consciously think of the metaphor in order for it to apply as such?

[Zevico]

Also can we please try to relate the Silmarillion to free markets and health care?

[kentonio]

Also I asked for evidence Ben, not an editorial in the Village News and some handpicked quotes by a doctor. You missed out quite a relevant one by the way..

Those injuries could have happened, Baden continued, from "some kind of trauma. The trauma could be from an auto accident, the trauma could be from a fall, or the trauma could be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It's something that should have been investigated in 1991 . . . and maybe [it was] by police at that time."

Lacking any actual 'consent' in the form of prior written documentation, I would find this insufficient proof that she actually desired such a thing.

Luckily for America you're just a retarded Canadian religious extremist with the same grasp on how law works as your average border collie puppy. No-one cares what you 'would find'.

[kentonio]

Tolkien may deny but who's to say he had to consciously think of the metaphor in order for it to apply as such?

I actually tend to agree with this, although I suspect some of the comparisons were quite deliberate.

[Ben Kenobi]

Tolkien explicitly denied the whole "LOTR is an allegory for WWII" thing. Not that it's at all relevant to the Schiavo case.

I specifically said the period from 1914 onwards, which encompasses his experience in the first world war, which he goes on to specifically cite as inspiration for the story. And it makes sense. Fantastic sense when you read Master Samwise's return to the Shire and Frodo's PTSD.

WRT Beren and Luthien, he engraved on his tombstone "Beren" and "Luthien". Which is evidence in my favor that the poem he wrote was a love poem from himself to his wife. Both suffered greatly for the other. It's quite a love story if you read the actual history behind it - far better than the actual story of "Beren" and "Luthien".

It's like that star trek episode. "Beren and Luthien in Beleriande", or if we actually lived in such a society, "Tolkein and Edith in Roos".

[Ben Kenobi]

Zevico:

Elok's being extremely disingenous here. What Tolkein actually wrote is this:

One has indeed personally to come under the shadow of war to feel fully its oppression; but as the years go by it seems now often forgotten that to be caught in youth by 1914 was no less hideous an experience than to be involved in 1939 and the following years. By 1918 all but one of my close friends were dead.

Which confirms my statement.

[Ben Kenobi]

Also I asked for evidence Ben, not an editorial in the Village News and some handpicked quotes by a doctor.

You asked for evidence and you recieved evidence. Perhaps it should have been investigated back in 1990. Perhaps it should have been investigated in 2000, perhaps it should have been investigated back in 2005. But it was not and the result is that she is dead.

But it's been suspected for a long time - and was brought up, in the earlier evidence that I cited by Michael's brother in law, that it was known even then and suspected.

Luckily for America you're just a retarded Canadian religious extremist with the same grasp on how law works as your average border collie puppy. No-one cares what you 'would find'.

I tend to put the burden on the folks desiring death to actually find some evidence that she herself wanted to die. Written documentation from prior to the accident. Truly informed consent. Even so - she should not have been deprived of life, not through starvation. This was a great wrong.

[kentonio]

WRT Beren and Luthien, he engraved on his tombstone "Beren" and "Luthien". Which is evidence in my favor that the poem he wrote was a love poem from himself to his wife. Both suffered greatly for the other. It's quite a love story if you read the actual history behind it - far better than the actual story of "Beren" and "Luthien".

Stop pretending this has any relevance. All your LOTR reference showed is that you have the emotional maturity of a 13 year old girl. If you'd ever actually lived with a woman, you'd realize quote how ridiculous you sound.