If abortion was to be made illegal ....

[Elok]

Also, it would be nice if cops actually prosecuted the damn rapists. I've heard, from multiple sources, that they tend to take a rape kit and then decide whether or not to investigate based on the Al B. Sure method of "does she look like she wanted it?" Much of the time the rape kit winds up gathering dust in an evidence locker forever.

Or so I read.

[Ben Kenobi]

Blurg.

I can agree with most of that. However, I think that parents should be free to opt their child out of sex education, but have condoms etc included in public school. No requirements on homeschools, parochial schools, etc.

It would be nice to sever the link between Planned Parenthood and abortion and public funding. One of those three has to go. Personally, I'd prefer to see public funding go and let folks put all the money they want into Planned Parenthood. I really think that if there's a market desire for these things, then people will be more than willing to pay planned parenthood. I think so long as there's public funding this is always going to be an issue - so let them do what they want to do.

Agreed with what you said about Gosnell. It really doesn't help the public support for abortion when you've got filthy instruments and have women die in your perfectly legal clinic. I thought this was supposed to be a reason *to* make it legal? If the clinics aren't kept to proper safety standards, then there's really no difference between abortion legal and illegal.

[Elok]

Even by your standards, that's just bizarre. What part of "banned from second trimester onwards" and "stop routing government cash through abortion providers" implies "legal and publicly subsidized for all nine months" to you? That's not even a distortion; that's the exact and literal opposite of what I said.

You wacky bugger, you.

[Ben Kenobi]

Mea culpa. I missed that part about second trimester.

Read first. Then write response.

[dannubis]

So you say that's not a baby, dannubis? Really?

1. I don't look at Ben's posts because there is no point in reading them so I can't tell if he is talking about babies or not.

2. My personal position on abortion is a choice between the lesser of 2 evils:

If I would get a woman pregnant my course of action would be to man up and keep our child (AND HELP TO RAISE IT). If an unplanned pregnancy happens within your relationship then the discussion is more like one between 2 equal partners and my opinion should be valued as much as my wife's/partner's. Ultimately it is still her choice but a non-medical abortion would be a deal breaker for me. On the other hand, if an unwanted pregnancy happens outside of my relationship then my personal opinions don't mean ****. You can say whatever you want but she still should have the freedom of choice (within scientifically determined conditions, e.g; first trimester only, ...).

So Sloww, please tell me how this is an unreasonable position. And Ben, don't bother replying, I am not reading your drivel anyway.

[SlowwHand]

Overall, I agree with you. I will say this, again, abortion used as a means of birth control is bull****.

[kentonio]

We do need to have a discussion about abortion in this country; however, that discussion will not take place on Poly, nor will it take the form of a shouting match between the Baby-Killers and the Oppressive Patriarchy. At least, not if we expect anything to come of it. We can but hope that there will (eventually) come a day when we sit down, discuss things rationally, and come to a mutually acceptable compromise like adults. The status quo isn't terribly attractive to either side.

People will talk about whatever is current and topical, and if the repugs keep making abortion a hot button issue, it will continue to come up. You can also expect the tone to mirror the tone used in civil debate, which is currently anything but civil.

[kentonio]

It really doesn't help the public support for abortion when you've got filthy instruments and have women die in your perfectly legal clinic. I thought this was supposed to be a reason *to* make it legal? If the clinics aren't kept to proper safety standards, then there's really no difference between abortion legal and illegal.

Stick your strawman up your ass please. Alternatively provide some links proving the existence of these legal clinics working under unsafe conditions and examples of women dying as a result.

[kentonio]

I will say this, again, abortion used as a means of birth control is bull****.

Yes it is bull****. Anyone who thinks a statistically significant number of women use abortion as birth control (excluding the morning after pill, which is not abortion in any meaningful sense) is a moron who needs their brain examining by a mental health professional as soon as possible. It is actually bordering on insane to believe that a woman would deliberately choose to undergo a surgical procedure rather than say.. take a pill or use a condom.

[MikeH]

Read first. Then write response.

OMG! A breakthrough moment for Ben.

[giblets]

Overall, I agree with you. I will say this, again, abortion used as a means of birth control is bull****.

Unless the baby has deviant genes, of course.

[Imran Siddiqui]

At this point, almost anything that actually made the slightest bit of difference. It's the nature of compromise to be less-than-ideal. But if we could ban that **** from, say, the second trimester onwards, do something to reduce the demand for it (e.g., sex ed that doesn't tell students SEX WILL MAKE YOUR PENIS FALL OFF, EVEN WITH CONDOMS), and get the government funding women's health initiatives through a middleman other than the nation's biggest abortion provider...I would consider that a definite improvement. Right now we're too polarized to move an inch, even though most of us do not actually want it to be legal to snuff a kid for non-emergency reasons two days before her due date.

That Gosnell monster got away with it for so long in part because state regulators were too gun-shy to actually regulate. They were afraid to be seen as "oppressing women," so someone up the political totem pole declared a laissez-faire policy. And they were gun-shy in part because, at present, most of our "victories" take the form of onerous regulations designed to make clinics unprofitable. And of course there's a reason for that in turn, namely SCOTUS won't let us do anything more direct. And so on. It's just a convoluted ball of unworkable paranoia and hate, and it leaves us at an impasse. If nothing else, we could stand to be more honest.

x1000

It makes an insane amount of sense to ban abortion in the 3rd trimester (or 'after viability' if you like) and provide a social safety net that provides for children care as well as for the mothers who will have to raise these children (esp if on their own). Good sex ed helps as well, in addition to insurance companies not acting like total jerks when issuing birth control pills.

Unfortunately because ANY compromise will be seen as 'giving in' too much by the nutters on either side, it will never happen. (Btw, that's why Roe gets blamed for preventing compromise - the debate became radicalized after that. Also Roe is directly responsible for the rise of the 'religious right' in politics - beforehand they were fine with retreating into their own communities).

[MrFun]

At this point, almost anything that actually made the slightest bit of difference. It's the nature of compromise to be less-than-ideal. But if we could ban that **** from, say, the second trimester onwards, do something to reduce the demand for it (e.g., sex ed that doesn't tell students SEX WILL MAKE YOUR PENIS FALL OFF, EVEN WITH CONDOMS), and get the government funding women's health initiatives through a middleman other than the nation's biggest abortion provider...I would consider that a definite improvement. Right now we're too polarized to move an inch, even though most of us do not actually want it to be legal to snuff a kid for non-emergency reasons two days before her due date.

That Gosnell monster got away with it for so long in part because state regulators were too gun-shy to actually regulate. They were afraid to be seen as "oppressing women," so someone up the political totem pole declared a laissez-faire policy. And they were gun-shy in part because, at present, most of our "victories" take the form of onerous regulations designed to make clinics unprofitable. And of course there's a reason for that in turn, namely SCOTUS won't let us do anything more direct. And so on. It's just a convoluted ball of unworkable paranoia and hate, and it leaves us at an impasse. If nothing else, we could stand to be more honest.

[Ben Kenobi]

Unfortunately because ANY compromise will be seen as 'giving in' too much by the nutters on either side

You might want to re-read my post if you think that the 'religious nutters' are unwilling to work with something sensible like 20 weeks.

[Ben Kenobi]

It is actually bordering on insane to believe that a woman would deliberately choose to undergo a surgical procedure rather than say.. take a pill or use a condom.

You're assuming that Condoms and birth control never fail. This is false. Yes, some women do use condoms and birth control and still get pregnant.