Snoopy contraception bet

[N35t0r]

Yes, I have justified that by saying that this is a major cause of breakup and divorce. Which you yourself confirmed. I don't like divorce, and if it means preventing divorce and increasing compatibility, this is something that should be discussed beforehand. If the answer is that one or the other does not want children, that the best outcome is not to marry.

Make up your mind. Up there you were saying that people shouldn't get married if they weren't going to have kids. This includes couples which agree on not having children, and wouldn't get divorced on the issue. Make up your mind, which one is it?

[Ben Kenobi]

Make up your mind. Up there you were saying that people shouldn't get married if they weren't going to have kids. This includes couples which agree on not having children, and wouldn't get divorced on the issue. Make up your mind, which one is it?

I believe that even if couples who agree on not having children when they marry should not get married. I believe that if you get married you should want to have children.

[N35t0r]

That's fine. The problem is that you insist that the government make policy based on your preferences.

[Ben Kenobi]

So it's impossible to speak for both?

Official Catholic church teaching is that official Catholic church teachings only apply to those who are Catholic, not to those who are not. Contraception is an example of an official catholic church teaching, and it is a part of the understanding of what marriage means to a Catholic. As is what I said here regarding Marriage and children.

So, if you were asking me about what the Catholic church taught, again, I would have to say that disclaimer. Non Catholics are not expected to abide by the rules that the Catholic church sets for their members.

Your actions are totally separated from the catholic churche's teachings?

Not at all. I'm just clarifying here - the difference between what I posted and the official teachings is an important disclaimer. I wasn't going to cite the disclaimer, unless the question shifted from, "what is my personal opinion here", which I gave, and between, "what does the Catholic church actually teach.

When you quote catholic doctrine you are not speaking for the catholic church as a whole? Or is it only Bentolic doctrine?

I've cited Catholic doctrine wrt contraception, and the rationale behind it from the catechism. Part of that includes the stuff on marriage and children.

Funny, because then you go on and state that everybody should go and do what you think they should.

'should' and 'ought', absolutely. But I don't believe they should be required to do so. Again, what I believe is different from what I believe the State ought to do about such things. I do not support contraception, but I do support people having access to contraception provided that they pay for it themselves. I don't support government mandated contraception. These are three different positions, and each of them have different rationales.

[Ben Kenobi]

The problem is that you insist that the government make policy based on your preferences.

Not at all. I would even go so far to say as I don't believe that non-Catholic christians were expected to follow this. It's a small part of an important distinction between how the Catholic church sees marriage as opposed to even most other Christians.

[N35t0r]

I don't support government mandated contraception.

I don't think you know what 'government mandated' means. Your government mandates vaccination against several diseases (and even then allows exeptions), not contraception.

I do not support contraception, but I do support people having access to contraception provided that they pay for it themselves.

So the government should not provide free access to contraception through methods such as health insurance?

Not at all.

So the government should decide whatever it wants WRT contraceptives?

Somehow, the last two statements are a bit contradictory.

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't think you know what 'government mandated' means. Your government mandates vaccination against several diseases (and even then allows exeptions), not contraception.

It mandates health care. Americans have to buy insurance. That insurance includes contraception, so yes, there is a contraception mandate.

So the government should decide whatever it wants WRT contraceptives?

Insofar as there is a demand, let private enterprise meet that demand through contraception sales. The role of the government would be in regulating distribution (ie, pharmacies), and drug testing like they do for other stuff. Age restrictions - if you can't buy booze, why are you being allowed to buy contraception. Makes no sense to me.

Private pharmacists should not be required to dispense contraception or anything else.

That's how I see it at least. Here there's a pharmacist on every corner. If you don't like the closest dude, walk a block.

Somehow, the last two statements are a bit contradictory.

Just because I oppose contraception doesn't mean that believe others should be forced to live like I do. If you want it, pay for it, or make arrangements with a private charity.

[N35t0r]

It mandates health care. Americans have to buy insurance. That insurance includes contraception, so yes, there is a contraception mandate.

Again, I think you misunderstand what a mandate is. You are not forced to get contraception. It's like saying that the government mandating car insurance means it is mandating running over people.

Insofar as there is a demand, let private enterprise meet that demand through contraception sales. The role of the government would be in regulating distribution (ie, pharmacies), and drug testing like they do for other stuff. Age restrictions - if you can't buy booze, why are you being allowed to buy contraception. Makes no sense to me.

I can't buy nuclear missiles, so I shouldn't be able to buy bottled water either. Makes no sense.

Private pharmacists should not be required to dispense contraception or anything else.

That's how I see it at least. Here there's a pharmacist on every corner. If you don't like the closest dude, walk a block.

This has nothing to do with the rest of your argument.

Just because I oppose contraception doesn't mean that believe others should be forced to live like I do. If you want it, pay for it, or make arrangements with a private charity.

So you do think the government should operate according to your preferences (which is what I said and you denied)

[DaShi]

Is Ben already welching on a bet that hasn't even happened yet?

[rah]

Contraception is an example of an official catholic church teaching, and it is a part of the understanding of what marriage means to a Catholic. As is what I said here regarding Marriage and children.

Since so many Catholics ignores that teaching and use contraceptives does that mean that so many Catholics don't really understand what marriage means to a Catholic?

[Ben Kenobi]

You are not forced to get contraception.

Yes, I am forced to pay for contraception. This is basic logic. I'm forced to buy coverage. Contraception is part of that coverage, ergo I am forced to buy contraception.

I can't buy nuclear missiles, so I shouldn't be able to buy bottled water either. Makes no sense.

In terms of chemicals, Alcohol is actually less dangerous.

This has nothing to do with the rest of your argument.

Has everything to do with it. No pharmacist should be forced to stock anything he does not wish to sell. Again, let the market work. There is demand for contraception. Let those who want to sell it sell it.

So you do think the government should operate according to your preferences (which is what I said and you denied)

If I wanted the government to enforce my beliefs, I'd argue for it's outright ban. Not easy availability and purchase for adults.

[Ben Kenobi]

Since so many Catholics ignores that teaching and use contraceptives does that mean that so many Catholics don't really understand what marriage means to a Catholic?

That's one explanation.

Another is that many 'Catholics', don't believe in following what the Catholic church teaches.

[kentonio]

Yes, I am forced to pay for contraception. This is basic logic. I'm forced to buy coverage. Contraception is part of that coverage, ergo I am forced to buy contraception.

That's one explanation.

Another is that many 'Catholics', don't believe in following what the Catholic church teaches.

The US federal government helps fund Planned Parenthood and has since long before you were born. Planned Parenthood provides condoms. Therefore any money you pay to the federal government in tax help pays for condoms. You willingly chose to move to America, ergo you are a terrible Catholic who does not practice what he preaches.

[Ben Kenobi]

The US federal government helps fund Planned Parenthood and has since long before you were born. Planned Parenthood provides condoms. Therefore any money you pay to the federal government in tax help pays for condoms. You willingly chose to move to America, ergo you are a terrible Catholic who does not practice what he preaches.

Couple things here.

1, I don't support public financing for the nation's largest for-profit abortion clinic. So I located myself in the state that actually defunded Planned parenthood altogether.
2, If you're argument is that Catholics are already forced to pay for something that it's ok to make them pay even more, is a terrible one. That's like arguing that you've killed one person, what's killing another?
3, Precisely how, have I actually violated my beliefs based on information you have?
4, Are you suggesting that Canada has less liberal laws than the United States? I could turn it around and say that by moving I am actually acting in accordance with my beliefs by moving to an area with far more respect for Catholic beliefs.

[N35t0r]

Yes, I am forced to pay for contraception. This is basic logic. I'm forced to buy coverage. Contraception is part of that coverage, ergo I am forced to buy contraception.

And we're all forced to pay for running over people when I buy car insurance. Impeccable logic. I shouldn't be required to have car insurance when owning a car because it means that the government is forcing me to pay for running over people.

If I wanted the government to enforce my beliefs,

I didn't say that. If you're going to quote something, at least read it.

I'd argue for it's outright ban. Not easy availability and purchase for adults.

That's your preference, and what you want the government to do.