Exodus President Alan Chambers realizes he's wrong and apologizes.

[Ben Kenobi]

'sin' being a nonsensical term doesn't mean that there is no such thing as right and wrong.

Ah. Well the Catholic church defines sin as actions that are morally wrong. So is the issue with the term, 'sin', or is the issue with the content of the term sin as understood by the Catholic church?

[Ben Kenobi]

Um, of course he's Catholic. He talks about his Catholic faith all the time.

Where? I'd like to see evidence of this.

Oh, and on a side note, I consider myself to be part of the emergent church "nonsense" FTW.

The idea that the Church should change to accommodate this generation's fads is silly. The argument that church doctrine transcends generations is the only way to go.

[kentonio]

Ah. Well the Catholic church defines sin as actions that are morally wrong. So is the issue with the term, 'sin', or is the issue with the content of the term sin as understood by the Catholic church?

The issue is with morality being defined not just in terms of things that cause harm, but rather as 'things some people don't like'. Two single people ****ing is no more 'morally wrong' than two married people ****ing. The idea that in the 21st century we're supposed to give a **** about that stuff just illustrates how obsolete and out of touch the Catholic church really is.

[MikeH]

[MikeH]

In this case - things people loudly proclaim they don't like before eventually admitting they actually really like it a lot and OMG did you see how tight his shorts were?

[Ben Kenobi]

The issue is with morality being defined not just in terms of things that cause harm

I would argue that free association is more important. How is it harmful to homosexual people if the Catholic church teaches what it does? People are free to leave the Catholic church whenever they want.

Two single people ****ing is no more 'morally wrong' than two married people ****ing.

Which is why studies of single mothers show that the quickest way to find oneself in poverty is to have a kiddo while unmarried. You're talking about harms? That's a harm right there. Society does have an interest in this issue, in preventing single motherhood. The best way to do that is to wait till you get married.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Where? I'd like to see evidence of this.

I can't believe you are this ignorant of stuff you are pronouncing on (oh wait, nevermind):

http://www.utne.com/Mind-Body/Andrew-Sullivan-on-Being-Gay-and-Catholic.aspx#axzz2WrREYDGA

http://americamagazine.org/content/all-things/andrew-sullivan-being-gay-and-catholic

---

http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2009/11/the-church-in-the-castro/194145/

I do find it increasingly hard to attend mass after campaigns as in Maine that feel like an assault on my soul and others'; and a sense of exile - spiritually and psychologically - has marked my faith life since the sex abuse scandal broke.

Maybe I am too weak to leave and be done with it. But in my prayer life, I detect no vocation to do so. In fact, in so far as I can glean a vocation, it is to stay and bear witness, to be a thorn in the side, even if the thorn turns inward so often, and hurts and wounds me too.

I stay because I believe. And I stay because I hope. What I find hard is the third essential part: to love. So I stay away when the anger eclipses that. But the love for this church remains through the anger and despair: the goodness of so many in it, the truth of its sacraments, the knowledge that nothing is perfect and nothing is improved if you are not there to help it.

---

The idea that the Church should change to accommodate this generation's fads is silly. The argument that church doctrine transcends generations is the only way to go.

Yes, how dare the Catholic Church accept the fad of heliocentrism. Everyone knows that God teaches the Earth is in the center of things and that transcends the generations!

[Ben Kenobi]

In this case - things people loudly proclaim they don't like before eventually admitting they actually really like it a lot and OMG did you see how tight his shorts were?

You're gravely mistaken if you think that I don't understand there's a reason why people like sin.

[Ben Kenobi]

I can't believe you are this ignorant of stuff you are pronouncing on (oh wait, nevermind):

I am ignorant hence why I ask for proof of your statement.

Thank you for this btw. Intel is always valuable.

Yes, how dare the Catholic Church accept the fad of heliocentrism. Everyone knows that God teaches the Earth is in the center of things!

So what do you make of Matthew 19 then where Christ explicitly says that men and women were made to have sex with one another, and not men with men and women with women?

[kentonio]

I would argue that free association is more important. How is it harmful to homosexual people if the Catholic church teaches what it does? People are free to leave the Catholic church whenever they want.

Considering biblical teaching has played a huge part in homophobic discrimination and oppression over the last 2 millenia, yes I'd have to describe it as 'harmful'.

Which is why studies of single mothers show that the quickest way to find oneself in poverty is to have a kiddo while unmarried. You're talking about harms? That's a harm right there. Society does have an interest in this issue, in preventing single motherhood. The best way to do that is to wait till you get married.

Tough ****, marriage is no longer the socially demanded convention for relationships that it once was. Deal with it.

[Ben Kenobi]

Considering biblical teaching has played a huge part in homophobic discrimination and oppression over the last 2 millenia, yes I'd have to describe it as 'harmful'.

So you think it's worth suspending free association to impose your values on the Church?

Tough ****, marriage is no longer the socially demanded convention for relationships that it once was. Deal with it.

So harms themselves are irrelevant. Thanks Kentonio.

It all boils down to this. You believe that your values are what is right for society. The Catholic church believes that their values are what is right for society.

So who is correct here? Kentonio or the Catholic church?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I am ignorant hence why I ask for proof of your statement.

If you are ignorant then you shouldn't arrogantly assume someone is making something up.

So what do you make of Matthew 19 then where Christ explicitly says that men and women were made to have sex with one another?

I believe John Calvin was right when he articulated his theory of Condescension - that God speaks to us humans where we are and in a manner that we can comprehend. This doesn't mean we get the full truth, but more and more truth is revealed to us when we are ready for it. Therefore, Jesus speaks in the language of the men of Palestine when he was around, and in the discussion of divorce, which would only apply to men & women in that era.

Jesus even says that Moses allowed divorce due to the hardness of hearts - at the time he was giving the command. The people weren't ready for God's truth, so he allowed them something different for a while due to their circumstances.

This is why we have the Holy Spirit, to constantly reveal God's Word, which is living and active, not static (which is one reason that some Patriarchs of the Church weren't so fond of a written down Scripture - because it loses its activeness, and preferred an Oral Scripture). God is not confined to a page in a book. I'd assume that Catholics are very wary of bibolatry.

[Ben Kenobi]

If you are ignorant then you shouldn't arrogantly assume someone is making something up.

Where did I ever claim you were making anything up? I asked for proof. You provided it. I thanked you for providing what I asked HC for originally.

Therefore, Jesus speaks in the language of the men of Palestine when he was around, and in the discussion of divorce, which would only apply to men & women in that era.

So you're arguing that Jesus was speaking to their time and his culture when he argues that men and women should stay married to one another for life? I would argue quite the opposite. Divorce was common then and now. Jesus argued for a higher understanding of the content of marriage then and now.

Jesus even says that Moses allowed divorce due to the hardness of hearts - at the time he was giving the command. The people weren't ready for God's truth, so he allowed them something different for a while due to their circumstances.

The people themselves argued, "if this is what marriage is, then it is better not to be married." This is evidence that Jesus did not speak to the culture of the time, but in fact argued that his teaching on marriage transcended this period of time. Jesus himself argues that, "it was not like this in the beginning", that in effect the standard prior to Moses is the standard that was being applied by him - that marriage was for life.

God is not confined to a page in a book. I'd assume that Catholics are very wary of bibolatry.

Given that we wrote the books, you think incorrectly. The difference between Catholics and Protestants is that Catholic tradition is understood to be on par with sacred scripture. Protestants hold their traditions as superior to scripture.

[kentonio]

So you think it's worth suspending free association to impose your values on the Church?

I think you should shove your death cult up your arse personally, but each to their own. Or at least each to their own right up to the point where you start trying to impose your bronze age bull**** on the rest of us.

It all boils down to this. You believe that your values are what is right for society. The Catholic church believes that their values are what is right for society.

Actually most people don't go around trying to impose their own beliefs on other people in the guise of caring about society. Then again most people also don't have the bare faced hypocrisy to preach about poverty and giving to the poor while their leader sits on a golden thrones wearing a golden hat and surrounded by gold.

So who is correct here? Kentonio or the Catholic church?

Me obviously. Moron.

[MikeH]

especially the gold hat thing.