Exodus President Alan Chambers realizes he's wrong and apologizes.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Don't tell me what my church is ****face.

I think I have to, since you have it a bit wrong .

The Church's teaching is very clear with respect to homosexuality. The Encarta dictionary defines homosexuality "as an attraction to the same sex; sexual attraction to and sexual relations with members of the same sex."1 There are numerous references in Scripture with regard to same sex relations and sexual activity. Starting with Genesis 19 where there is reference to homosexual activity among the men in Sodom (hence the term sodomy), as well as in Leviticus (18:22, 20:13) which makes reference to the adopted "Holiness Code" and the penalty for such an action—"If there is a man who lies with a male as those be with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act"—was death. The Old Testament viewed sexual relations to be "normal" as those between a man and woman with the express purpose of procreation. This view, thinking, and teaching continued to the New Testament as well with St. Paul writing the most extensively on this subject. He condemns prostitution and homosexuality in 1 Cor. (6:9-10): "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral nor the idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals (arsenokoitai), nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers shall inherit the kingdom of God." These two examples do show the evolution of the Church's view on homosexuality. The Old Testament's view is consistent with its "judgment and retribution" (death penalty) ethos found in Jewish society in those times. The New Testament writing by St. Paul reflects Christ's teaching, where the "judgment" consisted of a stern yet "tough love" warning that persisting in these types of activities would prevent you from 'inheriting' the kingdom of God. This evolution of thought and teaching is significant for it signals the importance of the eschaton and a genuine concern for the individual in a loving, outreaching, yet solemn way. St. Paul's writing is also significant because the activity of homosexuality is mentioned in the same context as other sinful activities and passions. The "pastoral concern" for the individual will be addressed in the next section of this article. The Fathers of the Church also wrote on this and expressed the same view and teaching that homosexual acts are immoral and wrong. The Didache, as well as St. Basil (Canons 35, 77), Sts. John Chrysostom, Augustine, Gregory of Nyssa, John the Faster (Canons 9, 18) contain some of these writings as well as the 6th century code of Justinian and the Quinisext Synod (Canon 87). In all the writings of the New Testament and of the Fathers, "there is no example ... of approval, acceptance, or even tolerance of homosexuality."2 In fact, this is one topic that all Orthodox jurisdictions are in agreement on, as indicated in the 1978 SCOBA statement on homosexuality.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Homosexuality

(yes, there is an Orthodox wiki)

Also, I'd think Elok is probably more of an orthodox Orthodox than you just from both of y'alls posts

[Imran Siddiqui]

Also here is the 2003 SCOBA statement on same sex marriage (or as the Orthodox Bishops call it "moral crisis":

http://www.scoba.us/articles/2003-08-13-moral-crisis.html

As members of the Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas (SCOBA), representing more than 5 million Orthodox Christians in the United States, Canada and Mexico, we are deeply concerned about recent developments regarding “same sex unions.”

The Orthodox Christian teaching on marriage and sexuality, firmly grounded in Holy Scripture, 2000 years of church tradition, and canon law, holds that marriage consists in the conjugal union of a man and a woman, and that authentic marriage is blessed by God as a sacrament of the Church. Neither Scripture nor Holy Tradition blesses or sanctions such a union between persons of the same sex.

Holy Scripture attests that God creates man and woman in His own image and likeness (Genesis 1:27-31), that those called to do so might enjoy a conjugal union that ideally leads to procreation. While not every marriage is blessed with the birth of children, every such union exists to create of a man and a woman a new reality of “one flesh.” This can only involve a relationship based on gender complementarity. “God made them male and female… So they are no longer two but one flesh” (Mark 10:6-8).

The union between a man and a woman in the Sacrament of Marriage reflects the union between Christ and His Church (Ephesians 5:21-33). As such, marriage is necessarily monogamous and heterosexual. Within this union, sexual relations between a husband and wife are to be cherished and protected as a sacred expression of their love that has been blessed by God. Such was God’s plan for His human creatures from the very beginning. Today, however, this divine purpose is increasingly questioned, challenged or denied, even within some faith communities, as social and political pressures work to normalize, legalize and even sanctify same-sex unions.

The Orthodox Church cannot and will not bless same-sex unions. Whereas marriage be-tween a man and a woman is a sacred institution ordained by God, homosexual union is not. Like adultery and fornication, homosexual acts are condemned by Scripture (Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10). This being said, however, we must stress that persons with a homosexual orientation are to be cared for with the same mercy and love that is bestowed by our Lord Jesus Christ upon all of humanity. All persons are called by God to grow spiritually and morally toward holiness.

As heads of the Orthodox Churches in America and members of SCOBA, we speak with one voice in expressing our deep concern over recent developments. And we pray fervently that the traditional form of marriage, as an enduring and committed union only between a man and a woman, will be honored.

August 13, 2003

†Archbishop DEMETRIOS, Chairman
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

†Metropolitan HERMAN
Orthodox Church in America

†Metropolitan PHILIP, Vice Chairman
Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese

†Archbishop NICOLAE
Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America America and Canada

†Metropolitan CHRISTOPHER, Secretary
Serbian Orthodox Church in the USA and Canada

†Metropolitan JOSEPH
Bulgarian Eastern Orthodox Church

†Metropolitan NICHOLAS of Amissos, Treasurer
Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese in the USA

†Metropolitan CONSTANTINE
Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA

†Bishop ILIA of Philomelion
Albanian Orthodox Diocese of America

So y'all are just like the Catholics on this one.

[Elok]

Look, I don't want to get into some game of more-Orthodox-than-thou; it's a lot of odious, self-righteous horse****. What Sava believes/practices, or doesn't, is between him, his confessor, and God. Also, I don't think the subject is of much interest to anyone else. But for the record, I really don't see how I'm comparable to BK. I'm pretty well indifferent on the gay stuff--except when MrFun yammers on about it--and typically avoid the religious disputes as unproductive. Politically I'm moderate, leaning liberal on most issues. I tend to yell more at the liberals on here, but that's because I don't mind when conservatives act like jerks. I don't feel like they're making me look bad.

[Sava]

???

So I'm simultaneously a fanatic and insufficiently committed to the faith? Also, AFAICT I believe in more of the actual tenets of the faith than you do, so this makes precious little sense.

No. You don't. You consistently demonstrate a lack of knowledge in this regard.

Fanatics believe in false interpretations of the faith... like you do.

And Imran. You are completely wrong. Orthodoxy is decentralized. Nobody listens to the patriarchy. You would know this if you were Orthodox... which you are not. You are speaking from a position of complete ignorance. No web page is going to teach you about this. You could probably pass a convert test with that information. But even then, the kids in Sunday school know more than the converts.

Elok: You think you are a liberal? Maybe in Taliban circles. But you are just another judgmental pudwhack throwing stones from your glass house. So with all due respect, eat ****.

And the standards of which I evaluate your "Orthodox-ness" are based upon my culture's own teachings. My priests would agree with me... well, Father Dennis wouldn't. But he's a dip**** just like you. And everyone at church thinks so too. They are just nice to him because his son is retarded (literally).

[Sava]

Not even the generation born before WW2 would agree with the fundamentalist view on this matter. They survived WW2 and saw most of their peer group slaughtered by Nazis. Even the little old ladies would say, "Eh, if it makes you happy, why not?". But they aren't about to march in a pride parade. Just keep the stuff private, behind closed doors. That goes for sex in general... straight or gay.

Personally, my family is friends with only one gay couple (through the Serbian community/mafia). They didn't have a wedding at church. I doubt neither one of them would want to anyways. If they get gay married (legally), the church would recognize it because it's law. You might find a few outspoken asswipes that would oppose them. But there are always going to be crazy dip****s who fail to understand the core principles of their own religion (as Elok demonstrates).

[Imran Siddiqui]

And Imran. You are completely wrong. Orthodoxy is decentralized. Nobody listens to the patriarchy. You would know this if you were Orthodox... which you are not. You are speaking from a position of complete ignorance. No web page is going to teach you about this. You could probably pass a convert test with that information. But even then, the kids in Sunday school know more than the converts.

This is cute, but obscures the fact that I just did to you what the Orthodox Church condemns as sinful

Elok: You think you are a liberal? Maybe in Taliban circles. But you are just another judgmental pudwhack throwing stones from your glass house. So with all due respect, eat ****.

This reminds me when Newsmax thought I was a Marxist (back when I was a modern Republican). Such delusions...

[Ben Kenobi]

Don't tell me what my church is ****face. 33 years of services. I think I know it better than you or that dip****.

Hey Patriarch Sava!

Here's some more folks to excommunicate!

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/controversialissues

Orthodox actually follow what Jesus taught.

Matthew 19:4-6

“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

[Ben Kenobi]

Look, I don't want to get into some game of more-Orthodox-than-thou; it's a lot of odious, self-righteous horse****. What Sava believes/practices, or doesn't, is between him, his confessor, and God. Also, I don't think the subject is of much interest to anyone else. But for the record, I really don't see how I'm comparable to BK. I'm pretty well indifferent on the gay stuff--except when MrFun yammers on about it--and typically avoid the religious disputes as unproductive. Politically I'm moderate, leaning liberal on most issues. I tend to yell more at the liberals on here, but that's because I don't mind when conservatives act like jerks. I don't feel like they're making me look bad.

You'd better get right with Patriarch Sava or you'll find yourself excommunicated.

[Ben Kenobi]

the core principles of their own religion

Man, that Patriarch Sava can really preach. Free love is totally the premise of Jesus. Go Patriarch Sava - tell us how the only sin is hypocrisy!

[Imran Siddiqui]

In other news, I found this to be a great blog post:

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/06/20/an-unconditional-surrender-in-the-culture-war/

It’s very rare that one side in a culture war actively renounces its past positions and embraces a new one. That’s particularly true on the Christianist right, where absolutes hold sway, regardless of doubt or charity. So today is a banner day for those of us who have long fought for the equal dignity of homosexuals as children of the same God as heterosexuals, and deserving of no less love and support. Exodus International, the group that championed “reparative therapy” for gays as the only way to live a Christian life, will soon cease to exist and has offered an apology for its past actions. This is quite a statement from Exodus’s president, Alan Chambers:

Exodus is an institution in the conservative Christian world, but we’ve ceased to be a living, breathing organism. For quite some time we’ve been imprisoned in a worldview that’s neither honoring toward our fellow human beings, nor biblical. From a Judeo-Christian perspective, gay, straight or otherwise, we’re all prodigal sons and daughters. Exodus International is the prodigal’s older brother, trying to impose its will on God’s promises, and make judgments on who’s worthy of His Kingdom. God is calling us to be the Father – to welcome everyone, to love unhindered.

Then this personal apology:

Please know that I am deeply sorry. I am sorry for the pain and hurt many of you have experienced. I am sorry that some of you spent years working through the shame and guilt you felt when your attractions didn’t change. I am sorry we promoted sexual orientation change efforts and reparative theories about sexual orientation that stigmatized parents. I am sorry that there were times I didn’t stand up to people publicly “on my side” who called you names like sodomite—or worse. I am sorry that I, knowing some of you so well, failed to share publicly that the gay and lesbian people I know were every bit as capable of being amazing parents as the straight people that I know. I am sorry that when I celebrated a person coming to Christ and surrendering their sexuality to Him that I callously celebrated the end of relationships that broke your heart. I am sorry that I have communicated that you and your families are less than me and mine.

That’s an enormous statement given the recent past and, to me, a sign of God’s grace. That’s why when I say “unconditional surrender,” I hope Exodus won’t regard that as some kind of victory lap. It isn’t. It just springs from a deep appreciation of their grace-filled decision to re-examine their conduct as Christians and see where the world may have led them astray. Anyone in the public sphere who openly and candidly comes to terms with an error of judgment, and owns it, and even seeks forgiveness for it, is contributing to a more humane, honest conversation and dialogue.

I’ve never been one of those campaigning to shut these psychological torments/”therapies” down. If that kind of therapy is what an adult wants, I will not get in the way.

In fact, I examined the actual arguments of reparative therapy in some detail in my book, Love Undetectable. The mind is still mysterious enough and the origins of our emotional and sexual attractions so complex, my view has always been to keep an open mind about what makes one a homosexual, before or after birth. I still don’t know. But what I do know is that homosexuality exists, that we are not a chimera, and that we are not straight people, drawn to wicked things. We are simply human beings, as human as any heterosexual, with all that entails for Christian doctrine.

And the older brother of the prodigal son is a fascinating analogy. The older son is still thinking in terms of rigid categories of worthiness and rule-based morality (and the pride that often comes with them), while the father opens his heart and doors to the younger, feckless son, who long ago abandoned every duty and every moral obligation, but who remains his son. The righteous brother is appalled at the overflow of the father’s love to such a miscreant:

Behold, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed a commandment of yours, but you never gave me a goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this, your son, came, who has devoured your living with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.

But God’s love sees past these categories. The only true virtue for Jesus is love – unconditional love, for anyone, in any situation. The parable is about letting go of those strict and sometimes self-righteous moral codes in order to surrender to the expansive and unnknowable force of God’s love. I return again to Augustine’s phrase

In essential things, unity. In doubtful things, liberty. In all things, charity.

Finally, one part of the Christian right has grasped the last part of that equation. They have returned from the barren land of Christianism and control of others and toward the fertile valley of Christianity and love for all.

May others follow in their path – as many in the younger generation already are.

[Guynemer]

I tend to yell more at the liberals on here, but that's because I don't mind when conservatives act like jerks. I don't feel like they're making me look bad.

Yes. A philosophy we share.

[Elok]

Sava, I'm not even anti-gay, FFS. As I just said, I'm pretty much apathetic on the matter--I can't find a shred of patristic/scriptural evidence in favor of Christian support for it, but not being attracted to dudes I consider it no concern of mine and stay out of the argument either way because it tends to produce pride, hate and fear out of proportion to its importance.

But I stand by what I said: if you're having buttsex with a woman, it's still kind of gay. All your business, none of mine...but yeah, kinda gay.

[Tuberski]

Then masturbation would be too, Elok. You are having sex with a man after all.

ACK!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Then masturbation would be too, Elok. You are having sex with a man after all.

ACK!

I think Elok mentioned upthread that the distinction is that masturbation is when one can't get a woman at that moment .

[Elok]

Then masturbation would be too, Elok. You are having sex with a man after all.

ACK!

No, there's no "sex" there. Only one person. Also, not following your reasoning here. I just said I think anal's a bit gay even when there is a woman involved, and...okay, this argument is too stupid to continue. I concede defeat, all sex is straight, whatever.