Exodus President Alan Chambers realizes he's wrong and apologizes.

[Uncle Sparky]

INCLUDING MAN-TRAINS

ESPECIALLY MAN-TRAINS

I've had sex on a train... or do you mean sex with a train? I also co-starred in Guy Maddin's Nude Caboose.

[kentonio]

Kentonio would love him.

No I wouldn't, he's a dick.

[Elok]

I just think it funny that Sava believes that his parish which disagrees with Orthodox teaching on the issue is so much different from a Catholic parish that disagrees with Catholic teaching on the same issue - or that a parish which disagrees with the position of the denomination means that the denomination doesn't believe in the position it espouses (ie, the person I linked to, Andrew Sullivan, is a gay Catholic - of course the Catholic Church still thinks he is disordered due to his gheyness, though deserves to be loved).

Hey, when my ELCA (Lutheran) congregation was for gay pastors in committed relationships, they didn't say the ELCA was for that - they instead wanted to change the ELCA's policy which was contra their own (which they helped do in 2009).

Yeah, we don't really do the whole "change" thing. It's something of a point of pride for us.

Anyway, Sava's argument, such as it is, consists of a series of bizarre and blatantly counterfactual assertions backed up by nothing but cradle-orthodox snobbery. He's saying, in effect, that the opinions of his parish carry more theological weight than those of their Metropolitan, or of St. John Chrysostom for that matter. You correctly said "no, that's nonsense." Of course it is. But he doubled down on the nonsense. There's really nowhere the argument can go from here unless you go to his parish and survey them--and that would just be accepting his faulty premise.

Again, just for the record: The church hierarchy is not purely ornamental. If at any point a church openly violates canon law, it is within their power to defrock and excommunicate a priest--I've seen this happen. Churches are decentralized, but this does not mean that local parishes can ignore their patriarchs; it just means that there is no single authority akin to the Pope. National churches (including the hodgepodge of "national churches" in the US, which are a historical accident and not canonical but oh well) have almost complete freedom to steer their own affairs, and no single bishop, by himself, has the authority to interfere in another's business. If even the Patriarch wants to change things around in a parish, he has to go through that parish's bishop--who can refuse--or else do it through the synod of bishops. With that said, however, the churches have not diverged significantly in doctrine over the years, and neither parishes nor bishops, alone or in groups, have the authority to ignore canon law. Revisions to canon law would take a very large council, if not an ecumenical one.

[Ben Kenobi]

that the opinions of his parish carry more theological weight than those of their Metropolitan, or of St. John Chrysostom for that matter.

He's Patriarch Sava. Of course his opinions carry more weight.

[Ben Kenobi]

And you're right btw about him and the catholic church, and I want to add that the catholic church isn't actually homophobic. They just think gay sex is sinning. They also think straight sex before marriage is sinning and masturbation is sinning. Honestly, virtually everything is sinning in catholic tradition, and everyone's a sinner. That's what's so awesome about it.

And everyone is called to overcome their sins. No exceptions here.

Sullivan is Catholic? Ugh. Where did you see that HC? He sounded Episcopalian with the 'emergent church' nonsense.

[MikeH]

If the Catholic Church changes their position so that gay sex within marriage isn't sinning, or if they decide that straight sex within marriage is sinning they'll no longer be homophobic.

Until then, they are. Simple.

[Ben Kenobi]

If the Catholic Church changes their position so that gay sex within marriage isn't sinning, or if they decide that straight sex within marriage is sinning they'll no longer be homophobic.

Until then, they are. Simple.

You use that word... I don't think it means what you claim it means. How is the church 'afraid' of gay people, when they say that sodomy is a sin?

[MikeH]

Oh come on Ben, don't be an asshat. It's meaning and usage has expanded to include discrimination against rather than just irrational fear of. Homophibic is entirely the appropriate word to use for discriminatory against homosexuals.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homophobia

[kentonio]

You use that word... I don't think it means what you claim it means. How is the church 'afraid' of gay people, when they say that sodomy is a sin?

I think there are thousands of priests who aren't in the least bit frightened of sodomy.

[kentonio]

Oh come on Ben, don't be an asshat. It's meaning and usage has expanded to include discrimination against rather than just irrational fear of. Homophibic is entirely the appropriate word to use for discriminatory against homosexuals.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homophobia

NO! Words must never change, which is why 'Awesome' still means 'profoundly reverential' or 'inspiring awe'!

[MikeH]

and gay means happy and joyful.

[Ben Kenobi]

Oh come on Ben, don't be an asshat. It's meaning and usage has expanded to include discrimination against rather than just irrational fear of. Homophibic is entirely the appropriate word to use for discriminatory against homosexuals.

Ok, but the Catholic church *isn't* discriminating against homosexuals. That's the point HC is making here. Everyone is considered a sinner, so there's no discrimination. Everyone has to overcome their sins. No exceptions.

[kentonio]

Ok, but the Catholic church *isn't* discriminating against homosexuals. That's the point HC is making here. Everyone is considered a sinner, so there's no discrimination. Everyone has to overcome their sins. No exceptions.

You use that word discrimination... I don't think it means what you think it means.

[Ben Kenobi]

I think there are thousands of priests who aren't in the least bit frightened of sodomy.

Hence why the term is a misnomer... 'Phobos', fear. 'Homo', sameness. So somehow the Catholic church has a 'fear of sameness.'.

I should coin 'sodomophilia', 'love' of 'sodomy'.

[Ben Kenobi]

You use that word discrimination... I don't think it means what you think it means.

How, exactly, is the Church practicing discrimination? Everyone's a sinner. They aren't singling out homosexuals.