3-D Printing your next Organ

[Ben Kenobi]

When did Jesus say that?

"Whatsoever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven..."

[Sava]

"Whatsoever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven..."

uhm... huh?
You just argued against respecting Earthly institutions.

[kentonio]

Indeed he does. However he also says that those who are baptised will be saved. It's not either/or. If you believe you should get baptised.

Please provide the quote for God saying those who are baptized will be saved. I'd like to see the exact wording.

Good question. What do you believe happens?

Absolutely nothing. It's simply another example of early rituals mutating over time and gaining a widespread acceptance that is not even based on its original intent let alone any kind of logic.

It's all based on theological arguments that fit together. It doesn't make sense because you've not got all the pieces. I'll try my best to explain.

If you need complex theology to explain something, then there's a pretty good chance that it has little to do with the original intent.

Christ himself says that you must be born again of water and the spirit, and he himself went out to the Jordan. Why was John baptising people out in the Jordan if it was merely a symbol? It's efficacious at cleansing original sin.

Splashing water on people is good at cleansing original sin? Yet you can be cleansed without the water by accepting god regardless? Thus making the water part... pointless?

[Sava]

Things can impact your health without ever being a threat to your life. The health exemption means very little.

Pregnancy, in the best circumstances, is a traumatic life threatening event for a woman. Did God forget to give you empathy?

[Ben Kenobi]

You just argued against respecting Earthly institutions.

Matthew 16:18-9

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

[Ben Kenobi]

Pregnancy, in the best circumstances, is a traumatic life threatening event for a woman. Did God forget to give you empathy?

Empathy for both the mother and child? Yes.

[Ben Kenobi]

Please provide the quote for God saying those who are baptized will be saved. I'd like to see the exact wording.

Good question. Romans 6:2-14. It's a bit long, but worthwhile.

We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Absolutely nothing. It's simply another example of early rituals mutating over time and gaining a widespread acceptance that is not even based on its original intent let alone any kind of logic.

The problem is that - this is St. Paul here - there's been no mutation - this is his teaching, and Christ's as well.

If you need complex theology to explain something, then there's a pretty good chance that it has little to do with the original intent.

Well, sure. Trinity is complex, that doesn't make it false.

Splashing water on people is good at cleansing original sin? Yet you can be cleansed without the water by accepting god regardless? Thus making the water part... pointless?

Not when it's done in the name of the Father, son and Holy Spirit.

[Sava]

Matthew 16:18-9

So were you wrong before when you argued against Earthly institutions? Or are you wrong now? Please choose. They are completely opposite positions.

[Sava]

Empathy for both the mother and child? Yes.

Sometimes you have to make a choice between the two. The female body isn't designed to "shut that whole thing down", Mr. Akin.

[Ben Kenobi]

So were you wrong before when you argued against Earthly institutions? Or are you wrong now? Please choose. They are completely opposite positions.

One the Church isn't an earthly institution. Two, I believe that the state has legitimate interests in maintaining the general welfare but that one of the duties of the state is to preserve fundamental freedoms. Including religious freedoms to allow the Church to operate in her own sphere. This is probably getting beyond the scope of this thread though...This requires a much longer answer for a fuller treatment.

[Sava]

One the Church isn't an earthly institution.

You just said it was in post #80.

Were you wrong then or now?

[Ben Kenobi]

Sometimes you have to make a choice between the two. The female body isn't designed to "shut that whole thing down", Mr. Akin.

The only complication for which the life of the child cannot be spared at present is an ectopic pregnancy. As there is no way to save the life of the mother and the child, it's permissible to save the life of the mother. The double effect is to save one life rather than lose two. All the other exceptions - no. Even rape. The child is not irrevocably tainted and the child has the right to live.

[Ben Kenobi]

You just said it was in post #80.

Were you wrong then or now?

*sigh*. It's not governed as an earthly institution, insofar as it has a presencs as one. Like I said, it required a more fuller answer. It works in the world, but it is not of it. It is paradoxically older and younger than the world at the same time.

[Sava]

The only complication for which the life of the child cannot be spared at present is an ectopic pregnancy.

That is factually wrong. Women die in childbirth all the time and have even more so before modern medicine.

it's permissible to save the life of the mother.

PROGRESS!

All the other exceptions - no. Even rape.

Can you provide Biblical justification? What is your response to:

Hosea 9:11-16
Numbers 5:11-21
Numbers 31:17
Hosea 13:16

God seems to think murdering children in the womb is okay as long as you are punishing a woman for a crime. That's not God killing them himself. That's human beings killing children. Please specifically address this.

[Ben Kenobi]

That is factually wrong. Women die in childbirth all the time and have even more so before modern medicine.

Hence the term - "for which the life of the child cannot also be saved" through emergency c-section.

Can you provide Biblical justification?

For what specifically? The doctrine of double effect? The exemptation of ectopic pregnancy? It's in canon law, yes. The bible makes no specific mention of this.

What is your response to:

Again, what is permissible for God is not permissible for men. You dismissed my previous response to it. Life is his gift and his blessing, and he can withdraw it from us at any time he so chooses.

That's not God killing them himself.

The passages are quite explicit, that God himself can do it without human intervention.

That's human beings killing children. Please specifically address this.

"I" throughout, is reserved for God in each of these passages.