3-D Printing your next Organ

[Ben Kenobi]

If accepting God is a requirement for being saved then how does splashing water on the head of a baby not old enough to even understand the concept in any way effective?

This is a good question. The best way to understand this - is the following.

Who saves, God or you? If it is God - God himself commanded that this ought to be done and we ought to obey his commands.

[kentonio]

This is a good question. The best way to understand this - is the following.

Who saves, God or you? If it is God - God himself commanded that this ought to be done and we ought to obey his commands.

That doesn't make any sense. Either humans have free will or they don't. If god simply commands that babies get saved through baptism, then the baby has no free will.

Anyway, wasn't baptism originally performed for adults?

[PLATO]

This is a good question. The best way to understand this - is the following.

Who saves, God or you? If it is God - God himself commanded that this ought to be done and we ought to obey his commands.

Yeah I know...the world is flat and the Earth is the Center of the Universe. Whatever...

Personally Ben, I am against abortion too. So what? If these things are never researched then how will we ever know how to create the type stem cells we need. Not to mention that HC has already stated that the cells used in this type research are obtained from material that would be discarded anyway.

I know you just want to push your agenda...and that's fine. Maybe even your "christian duty", but to religiously turn a blind eye to science is to put you in the mentaliuty of the 1500's. Surely you don't want to be thought of as someone from that time period, do you? Remember, untold number of deaths have been caused by people doing their "christian duty".

I think we all know your position on this issue, so can the rest of us discuss the positive implications? You are certainly welcome to join in...

[Ben Kenobi]

Personally Ben, I am against abortion too. So what?

If you believe an embyro is a person - this is horrifying. You are killing people.

If these things are never researched then how will we ever know how to create the type stem cells we need.

Yeah, as a deaf person, I'd love to be able to fix my own ears. But not at the cost of a life of another person.

There is a way to do this that is a better way - use adult stem cells.

Not to mention that HC has already stated that the cells used in this type research are obtained from material that would be discarded anyway.

This is the exact same argument that we had many, many times before. It's wrong to kill people, and it's especially wrong to kill people that we regard as worthless or surplus.

I know you just want to push your agenda...and that's fine. Maybe even your "christian duty", but to religiously turn a blind eye to science

Oh, bull****. I've offered a viable alternative to the use of embryonic cells.

[Ben Kenobi]

That doesn't make any sense.

What about it doesn't make sense? If we wish really hard to be saved, will we be saved? Or do we need God?

Either humans have free will or they don't.

Everyone has free will - they can choose to follow God, or they can choose to reject him. Baptism doesn't force people to love God - they can still choose to reject him.

If god simply commands that babies get saved through baptism, then the baby has no free will.

And if the child dies without baptism and before reaching the age of reason, what then? Is it free will that the Child be denied baptism?

Anyway, wasn't baptism originally performed for adults?

Another good question. In the early church it was - mostly because if you were baptised, and became a catechumen you were putting your life at risk. Now, not so much. But, there are examples of children being baptised before the age of reason even back then, and households coming to the Lord.

[Sava]

So, the mother will die unless she kills her child first?

You oppose abortion in all forms... even in cases of rape, incest and health of the mother. Am I wrong?

[Sava]

If you carry the child to term and baptize the child, the child will be cleansed of original sin. I thought you schismatics believed this too.

Traditions are culturally relevant to specific ethnic groups. However, I don't believe that God cares about such things.

[Sava]

love God

God is love. Love is patience and kindness. Listen to Jesus.

Accepting God doesn't mean blindly following the ideology of some hypocritical, corrupt institution who cares more about enabling the mass rape of children than it does teaching people to treat others with patience and kindness.

[Ben Kenobi]

You oppose abortion in all forms... even in cases of rape, incest and health of the mother. Am I wrong?

Indeed. and none of these examples result in the death of the mother.

Traditions are culturally relevant to specific ethnic groups. However, I don't believe that God cares about such things.

This one is special! God himself did it!

[kentonio]

What about it doesn't make sense? If we wish really hard to be saved, will we be saved? Or do we need God?

He already offers salvation to anyone who accepts him, you can't just skip over the acceptance part.

And if the child dies without baptism and before reaching the age of reason, what then? Is it free will that the Child be denied baptism?

How is that any different to a baby dying who's parents haven't had them baptized? You're now starting to get to the reasons why baptizing infants makes absolutely no sense.

Another good question. In the early church it was - mostly because if you were baptised, and became a catechumen you were putting your life at risk. Now, not so much. But, there are examples of children being baptised before the age of reason even back then, and households coming to the Lord.

The original act was a symbolic ritual for adults who were accepting Christ. Extending that to people too young to make that choice is pretty idiotic, as without the choice it is nothing more than a meaningless symbol. It's on a par with the Mormons baptizing the dead.

[Ben Kenobi]

Accepting God doesn't mean blindly following the ideology of some hypocritical, corrupt institution who cares more about enabling the mass rape of children than it does teaching people to treat others with patience and kindness.

No, but accepting the authority of Papa Benedict *does*.

[Sava]

health of the mother

Indeed. and none of these examples result in the death of the mother.

It's quite possible you really are a lost cause.

[Sava]

No, but accepting the authority of Papa Benedict *does*.

When did Jesus say that?

[Ben Kenobi]

He already offers salvation to anyone who accepts him, you can't just skip over the acceptance part.

Indeed he does. However he also says that those who are baptised will be saved. It's not either/or. If you believe you should get baptised.

How is that any different to a baby dying who's parents haven't had them baptized?

Good question. What do you believe happens?

You're now starting to get to the reasons why baptizing infants makes absolutely no sense.

It's all based on theological arguments that fit together. It doesn't make sense because you've not got all the pieces. I'll try my best to explain.

The original act was a symbolic ritual for adults who were accepting Christ.

Christ himself says that you must be born again of water and the spirit, and he himself went out to the Jordan. Why was John baptising people out in the Jordan if it was merely a symbol? It's efficacious at cleansing original sin.

Extending that to people too young to make that choice is pretty idiotic, as without the choice it is nothing more than a meaningless symbol.

Again, it all fits together. It's not just a 'meaningless symbol'.

It's on a par with the Mormons baptizing the dead.

Or rebaptism.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's quite possible you really are a lost cause

Things can impact your health without ever being a threat to your life. The health exemption means very little.