Are states' rights more important than human lives?

[giblets]

What do you call life insurance? This is an idiotic sentiment. There is clearly some equilibrium where we balance the extension of human life with the betterment of human life.

Life insurance only compensates for the negative financial consequences one's death can have on others. You can't infer from it the value people place on their own lives. A better argument is that people put a market value on their own lives when they choose dangerous occupations.

[Krill]

Ben never did understand why healthcare systems exist.

[kentonio]

It's a simple question, Kentonio.

You get Healthcare, no contraception or abortion included. Deal or no deal?

Why would anyone make a deal with you about something that only you and a few wingnuts believe in? The vast majority of Catholic women use contraception, so why would anyone care that you're living in medieval times in your head?

[Hauldren Collider]

Life insurance only compensates for the negative financial consequences one's death can have on others. You can't infer from it the value people place on their own lives. A better argument is that people put a market value on their own lives when they choose dangerous occupations.

Hence the second half of my post.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why would anyone make a deal with you about something that only you and a few wingnuts believe in? The vast majority of Catholic women use contraception, so why would anyone care that you're living in medieval times in your head?

Because it blows away all your smokescreens, and gets to the heart of the matter. Like I said, it's not about the poor, or ensuring that people get the care they need, it's about ensuring access to public funding for an elective surgery and for contraception. That's all there is to it. It never was about healthcare, it was always about abortion and contraception from the start.

This is why the present administration has gone to war with folks like me who work for the Church. I just got back from an excellent sermon about how we have been given a unique opportunity. We have been given a challenge from God himself, to stand up and be counted. Some folks walked out, yes. But most stayed to listen.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben never did understand why healthcare systems exist.

Considering that other than the past three years, I've lived entirely under one. I should think that I do understand why, and it's got nothing to do with improving patient care.

[giblets]

You're using the same argument - "don't like slavery don't own a slave." Only works if you don't consider black people as persons.

Even you get it - you eat cows and don't eat fetuses. So you don't treat them the same way you do animals.

It's probably a lot cheaper to raise and slaughter cows than it is to go from abortion clinic to abortion clinic collecting unwanted fetus meat. Consider the fact that the vast majority of abortions occur in the first trimester when the fetus just isn't that big and juicy.

[ricketyclik]

... it's not about the poor, or ensuring that people get the care they need, it's about ensuring access to public funding for an elective surgery and for contraception. That's all there is to it. It never was about healthcare, it was always about abortion and contraception from the start.

I think this says more about your view of universal health care, not anyone else's.

[giblets]

It's a simple question, Kentonio.

You get Healthcare, no contraception or abortion included. Deal or no deal?

Assuming those things are available but not free at the point of delivery, deal.

[kentonio]

Because it blows away all your smokescreens, and gets to the heart of the matter. Like I said, it's not about the poor, or ensuring that people get the care they need, it's about ensuring access to public funding for an elective surgery and for contraception. That's all there is to it. It never was about healthcare, it was always about abortion and contraception from the start.

For goodness sake, contraception and abortion are tiny issues in the greater picture, and you want a direct answer to your question? Damn right everyone would accept a universal healthcare system that didn't include contraception or abortion, because there are 20,000 Americans a year dying from lack of heathcare and that is a ****ing crime. The reason people don't give ground on contraception is because its something that the vast majority actually want and it would make little or no difference cost wise to the system. Maybe if you spent a little less time obsessing about other peoples sex lives you might be a bit less weird.

This is why the present administration has gone to war with folks like me who work for the Church. I just got back from an excellent sermon about how we have been given a unique opportunity. We have been given a challenge from God himself, to stand up and be counted. Some folks walked out, yes. But most stayed to listen.

You idiot, the churches whined so Obama gave them an exception, and then you carried on whining anyway. Do you really not understand, you are not paying for contraception, the insurance companies are! How exactly does this impact on you in any way shape or form other than you trying to force other people to live by your narrow ridiculous rules?

[Ben Kenobi]

For goodness sake, contraception and abortion are tiny issues in the greater picture

Then you should be happy to toss them aside at the wayside.

Damn right everyone would accept a universal healthcare system that didn't include contraception or abortion

Obama didn't. Obama specifically rejected this option, and continues to insist that Catholic hospitals provide both. He continues to insist that all healthcare coverage must include abortion and contraception.

Maybe if you spent a little less time obsessing about other peoples sex lives you might be a bit less weird.

Maybe if you stopped advocating killing 1 million children a year, people would stop being bothered by it.

You idiot, the churches whined so Obama gave them an exception

Which he didn't do, btw. There is no exception for the Church. Islam, however got one. As did GM and GE, and I'm sure others I've forgotten.

Do you really not understand, you are not paying for contraception

Then Obama should be willing to permit people to buy private coverage that does not include contraception and abortion.

How exactly does this impact on you in any way shape or form other than you trying to force other people to live by your narrow ridiculous rules?

It's a violation of my conscience rights, and the rights of every Catholic in America under the First Amendment of the Constiution, protecting my freedom to practice my religion. Forcing me to purchase health care coverage that includes abortion and contraception violates this principle. Obama's welcome to set up whatever pie in the sky scheme he wants, and people may voluntarily join in, but he can't enforce sweet diddly poo.

[Ben Kenobi]

Assuming those things are available but not free at the point of delivery, deal.

Assuming zero funding for Planned Parenthood and other abortion providers in America.

[Ben Kenobi]

I think this says more about your view of universal health care, not anyone else's.

So toss it away then.

[Dauphin]

Strictly speaking it isn't when you consider the cost of prison.

Death panels wouldn't lead to any criminal charges.

[Krill]

But the cost of the death panels! Think of the all the expenses paid lunches...must be cheaper methods than that.

What about mandatory execution at 65 or 2 years unemployment?