Obamacare vs Supreme Court Round 2: This time its personal?

[MrFun]

I teach them about the 1st Amendment to the constitution, along with all the other 9 in the Bill of Rights. I teach them how it was radical at the time - and that it is why Catholics came to America in the first place - to escape the religious persecution they suffered in England at the time. They all have the natural right to freedom of conscience and religion, and that the government cannot take it away - because it is a right granted to them by God, not the state. The state has the obligation to respect and defend natural rights, and that any government that fails to defend the natural rights - the constitution itself states that the people have the right to install a new government.

Consent of the governed and all that. Right there in the Constitution.

Then we move on to the second and why the constitution protects the right to bear arms, and for the people to assemble into a militia for their own protection and the protection of the community.

Consent of the governed. When was there ever a time in America's history that government policy/laws had 100 percent consensus support nationwide?

[Ben Kenobi]

Obviously kicking people out once they have children makes no sense, that's why you should leave now. And if there was a substantial gap between your pay and the market value of your labor you could negotiate for more, so I'm not buying that. Your apparent life goal is to marry a latina and make $10k while she sits at home and pops out ten children. At best you make no net contribution to the US and at worst you'll be a horrific leech. You shouldn't be allowed in.

If those 10 children are provided for by me, what's the problem? They wouldn't be on welfare and they would be well-cared and looked after.

And if there was a substantial gap between your pay and the market value of your labor you could negotiate for more, so I'm not buying that.

You assume that my primary motivation in life is compensation.

[Ben Kenobi]

If you don't like it maybe you should get out seeing how you're a foreigner.

I was here prior to Obamacare. Why should I leave for holding up my end of the bargain?

[Ben Kenobi]

Consent of the governed. When was there ever a time in America's history that government policy/laws had 100 percent consensus support nationwide?

Natural rights, are natural rights. Stripping people of their natural rights is wrong, and that is what Obamacare does - it strips people in general, and Catholics in particular of their right to free exercise of their religious convictions. It's a simple enough fix - let Catholics opt out of the system entirely.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Natural rights, are natural rights. Stripping people of their natural rights is wrong, and that is what Obamacare does - it strips people in general, and Catholics in particular of their right to free exercise of their religious convictions. It's a simple enough fix - let Catholics opt out of the system entirely.

Bull****. Quakers still have to pay taxes even though they fund wars.

[MRT144]

Bull****. Quakers still have to pay taxes even though they fund wars.

this get's brought up all the time in this discussion and stupid Ben is going to reply "Well they can just make so little money they dont pay taxes"

[giblets]

If those 10 children are provided for by me, what's the problem? They wouldn't be on welfare and they would be well-cared and looked after.



You assume that my primary motivation in life is compensation.

They won't be supported by $10k. The only situation where someone with ten kids and only $10k wouldn't accept any form of welfare would be if they didn't care about the wellbeing of their children at all. Either way, I don't want you in the US until you can prove your labor is worth more than $10k.

I was here prior to Obamacare. Why should I leave for holding up my end of the bargain?

Laws can change. That is part of the bargain. You can comply or leave or face legal penalties, your choice.

[snoopy369]

Again, Ben, what's the difference between this and war objectors? I'm not even talking Quakers here, just people who feel it's morally wrong to have invaded Iraq. Why didn't they get to avoid paying taxes?

Religion is just a cop out here. Nobody is telling you that you have to change your mind, any more than the objectors had to change their mind about the war. You're not personally supporting abortions or contraception or anything else. You're paying taxes, and the government, which is the will of the people as a whole - not you personally - decided that some of those go to health insurance that includes these things. That's how it _has_ to work, or you end up with effective anarchy as each group that objects to something bows out of this or that until nothing can get done.

[Imran Siddiqui]

this get's brought up all the time in this discussion and stupid Ben is going to reply "Well they can just make so little money they dont pay taxes"

You still pay payroll taxes regardless, even if it gets returned to you (which is akin to making so little that the government pays for your health insurance).

[MRT144]

Again, Ben, what's the difference between this and war objectors? I'm not even talking Quakers here, just people who feel it's morally wrong to have invaded Iraq. Why didn't they get to avoid paying taxes?

Religion is just a cop out here. Nobody is telling you that you have to change your mind, any more than the objectors had to change their mind about the war. You're not personally supporting abortions or contraception or anything else. You're paying taxes, and the government, which is the will of the people as a whole - not you personally - decided that some of those go to health insurance that includes these things. That's how it _has_ to work, or you end up with effective anarchy as each group that objects to something bows out of this or that until nothing can get done.

Ben only believes in social contract when it suits him. Cause he's an intellectually and morally bankrupt ****.

[Ben Kenobi]

Bull****. Quakers still have to pay taxes even though they fund wars.

Conscientious objectors have been in place in America for close to a hundred years now. Quakers were allowed to opt out of military service, so should Catholics be allowed to opt out of Obamacare.

[MRT144]

Conscientious objectors have been in place in America for close to a hundred years now. Quakers were allowed to opt out of military service, so should Catholics be allowed to opt out of Obamacare.

You can opt out of having abortions and using condoms. You idiot.

[Ben Kenobi]

They won't be supported by $10k. The only situation where someone with ten kids and only $10k wouldn't accept any form of welfare would be if they didn't care about the wellbeing of their children at all. Either way, I don't want you in the US until you can prove your labor is worth more than $10k.

That's my wage at present. I also don't have a wife and 10 kids at present. So, again, I don't see the problem. You have the false impression that I intend to stay at 10k.

I don't want you in the US until you can prove your labor is worth more than $10k.

Economics proves that my labor is worth more than 10k. If my labour was not worth more than 10k, I would not be compensated at that level.

Laws can change. That is part of the bargain. You can comply or leave or face legal penalties, your choice.

I'm fine with Obama attempting to impose legal penalties contrary to the settled law of the Supreme Court of the United States which states that Obama cannot levy fines for non-compliance.

[snoopy369]

Ben makes clear his intelligence level through his own posts, no need to add invectives yourself and lower your own reputation.

That said, Quakers do pay taxes, some of which do go towards the military. That's no different, and 'conscientious objector' status is entirely unrelated to this.

[Ben Kenobi]

You can opt out of having abortions and using condoms. You idiot.

No, I can't. Insofar as I am required to pay for it as part of Obamacare, I am forced to pay for it. I have no option of opting out. Other people are granted Obamacare waivers - why cannot Obama grant a waiver to every Catholic in America?