How does this happen? Chick-fil-A branded as anti-gay?

[kentonio]

I'm confident that the market does not want to see businesses operate in this fashion. Ergo - businesses should be permitted to operate this way, because the market will deal with them if they do.

Since when was the market the only determination of what is ok in society?

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm interested in why Ben is a homophobe too. Not only did he actively chose an anti-gay religion, he also really publically hammers their anti-gay line, even though many Catholics are much more tolerant.

Well, couple things, since you're asking me what I believe.

1, I do not believe that people are 'homosexual' any more than they are 'heterosexual'. People have wants and desires. They are not defined by their wants and desires. A person is not defined by their actions, good or bad.

I believe that everyone is sinful, and that mankind is irredeemably fallen. You can lift what St. Augustine says about this, or John Calvin, or Hobbes. I believe they are correct about human nature. I believe that people are not 'good', that we are all steeped in sin and that only God is good.

Going from that, what is sin? What things do people do that are sinful? Do not lie, do not cheat, do not steal, do not bear false witness, etc. One of the things on this list - is do not lay with a man as you would a woman. Sex is reserved for marriage between one man and one woman.

This rules out things like polygamy, polyandry, and yes, homosexuality.

So, why do I believe that lying is sinful? Because it's contrary to what God wants. It also hinders the pursuit of truth. Why do I believe that homosexuality is sinful? Because it is contrary to what God intended for sex and it is incredibly destructive on the people who engage in it.

So, that's really it in a nutshell.

Am I perfect? Hardly. People call me out all the time, and yes I have many, many things I have to atone for. But, when everyone else here believes that homosexuality is a-ok, yes, I'm going to speak up about that.

As for Catholicism - it's the history. I believe that the Catholic church is the church founded by Jesus Christ himself. As much as I liked the Mennonites, I came to believe that every Christian had an obligation to join the Catholic church - out of desire for Christian unity. Because they were first, and the rest of us came later. So I left and converted and joined the Catholic church.

I used to believe - in my early poly days here that gay marriage was the solution to the problem. But I credit Apolyton with helping me understand why that thinking was wrong.

[Ben Kenobi]

Since when was the market the only determination of what is ok in society?

Do you agree that if a business were to put up such a sign that they would likely end up closed?

The market - which is an extension of society in general is far better at policiing itself than the state. I don't think anyone would want to see a sign like that. And I don't think most people would want to patronize such a business.

I realize most of you will disagree with this premise - and that's ok. It's a libertarian premise, and most folks here are not libertarians.

[MikeH]

As opposed to 'no whites'?

Both "no blacks" and "no whites" are quite obviously equally wrong aren't they.

[Kidlicious]

Person A gets a ballot
Person B gets a ballot.

Person A votes for the person they support.

Person B is unhappy because no one on the ballot represents him.

Is this an access issue? Is person B being discriminated against because nobody on the ballot represents him?

We live in a democracy, and that's how the government works. It sucks, but it's the best option available, and we do things to make life better for minorities. Really that is the key to democracy, that the citizen's respect the rights of the minorities, and they are FAIR to them. If they aren't the "democracy" might as well be a dictatorship for the minority.

[MikeH]

Believe what you want. Understand that beliefs you have chosen are offensive and hurtful to our gay posters, many of whom still suffer prejudice despite the great strides we've made towards equality. And despite whatever you might choose to believe, they didn't choose to be gay, so they can't choose not to be.

They will respond negatively to you, and I will continue to support their right not to be subject to persecution.

And yes, I support your right to believe whatever religious nonsense you want, as long as it doesn't involve anything that society doesn't deem acceptable which includes the persecution of minority groups.

[Ben Kenobi]

Both "no blacks" and "no whites" are quite obviously equally wrong aren't they

I've never drawn a distinction between the two. If a business wants to go out of business with one of those signs - that is fine by me. Put it up deal with the consequences.

Would I ever put anything of the sort up were I to own and operate a business? No. But I do believe very strongly that it's up to me which clients I choose to take on. I've worked as a tutor for a fair number of years, and I'll tutor pretty much anyone in subjects outside of foreign languages. But the final decision as to whether I choose to take someone on is mine.

[Ben Kenobi]

We live in a democracy, and that's how the government works. It sucks, but it's the best option available, and we do things to make life better for minorities. Really that is the key to democracy, that the citizen's respect the rights of the minorities, and they are FAIR to them. If they aren't the "democracy" might as well be a dictatorship for the minority.

I disagree that government intervention in these matters leads to a freer and more successful society. Especially not with hiring quotas. No businesses should be forced to hire someone to reach quota. They should be free to take on the most qualified person they can find. And I say that as a minority myself. Do I want to get hired because I'm the token deaf guy? Hell no.

[Ben Kenobi]

Believe what you want. Understand that beliefs you have chosen are offensive and hurtful to our gay posters, many of whom still suffer prejudice despite the great strides we've made towards equality. And despite whatever you might choose to believe, they didn't choose to be gay, so they can't choose not to be.

There are many beliefs here that I find offensive and hurtful. People have the right to express their beliefs regardless of what I believe to be the case. Just because I find something to be hurtful and offensive has no bearing on whether someone here ought to be able to express said beliefs. I believe very strongly that just because I believe something is hurtful and offensive, that they should be able to express said beliefs. Especially to me.

That is what discourse and debate is all about - the expression of ideas, some popular and some not so. If they believe that deaf people are stupid, retarded, etc, then fine - express that all you want.

They will respond negatively to you, and I will continue to support their right not to be subject to persecution.

Is it persecution to express an opinion that they do not like?

And yes, I support your right to believe whatever religious nonsense you want, as long as it doesn't involve anything that society doesn't deem acceptable which includes the persecution of minority groups.

So, stating that homosexuality is sinful is fine?

[kentonio]

Do you agree that if a business were to put up such a sign that they would likely end up closed?

a) I believe that if that attitude of yours had prevailed earlier in the century, America would still have segregation.
b) No, I believe that are many places where such a business would not end up closed. Many small communities have only a single bar/store/clinic etc. If someone is denied access to those services based on their colour, then how long do you think that people are going to end up living in that community? All you'd do is to cause clusters of racist communities which would inevitably leave to children being raised with their parents racism.

The market - which is an extension of society in general is far better at policiing itself than the state.

Really, I seem to recall the market collapsing utterly due to a lack of regulation just a few short years ago.

I don't think anyone would want to see a sign like that. And I don't think most people would want to patronize such a business.

How about the 4% of Americans who in 2012 are still happy to tell a pollster that they wouldn't vote for a black president? Or the 9% who said they wouldn't vote for a Jew?

And I say that as a minority myself. Do I want to get hired because I'm the token deaf guy? Hell no.

Will all due respect to your disability, you haven't experienced anything like the horrors that the black community had to suffer under American white rule, so to try and tell them that the protections they bled and died to win don't lead to a freer and more successful society is pretty thoughtless of you.

[MikeH]

So, stating that homosexuality is sinful is fine?

Well it's more complicated than that isn't it.

Posting it in the context of a religious discussion about different christian beliefs about sin doesn't seem unreasonable.

Posting it repeatedly (in every thread I seem to read you post in) in threads that don't mention religion seems extreme to me. Also you seem to single out one sin above all others. I don't see you repeatedly banging on about all the other things that are sinful every time they are mentioned. eg. heterosexual posters engaged in extramarital affairs don't get the focussed abuse you give the gay posters.

And that's the distinction between expressing an opinion being ok, and not being ok.

[MikeH]

That is what discourse and debate is all about - the expression of ideas, some popular and some not so. If they believe that deaf people are stupid, retarded, etc, then fine - express that all you want.

BTW - if someone was doing that, I would also consider it completely unacceptable for exactly the same reasons.

Those things are demonstrably not true in the same way that it's demonstrably true that homosexuality is completely normal (and not just in humans).

[Ben Kenobi]

a) I believe that if that attitude of yours had prevailed earlier in the century, America would still have segregation.

There's a difference between public schools and private enterprise. I agree that Brown was necessary, and I also agree that having separate facilities is inherently unequal.

b) No, I believe that are many places where such a business would not end up closed. Many small communities have only a single bar/store/clinic etc. If someone is denied access to those services based on their colour, then how long do you think that people are going to end up living in that community? All you'd do is to cause clusters of racist communities which would inevitably leave to children being raised with their parents racism.

Well, given what I've seen here I could see it easily working both ways. There are plenty of businesses here that do not cater to white folks. If they want to have their taco stand or the iglesias, that's perfectly fine by me. That's how freedom is supposed to work. They have a target customer and I am not their target customer.

I used to live in little Vietnam when I was in Vancouver. And I saw the same thing there. I've lived in many places where I was a minority not just on my hearing. Would you shut these businesses down because they don't hire white people?

Really, I seem to recall the market collapsing utterly due to a lack of regulation just a few short years ago.

The collapse was a good thing. It was an opportunity to destroy malinvestment and fix the entire system. Unfortunately the 'private' businesses that were going to go under got bailed out rather than liquidated. They should have been allowed to fail.

How about the 4% of Americans who in 2012 are still happy to tell a pollster that they wouldn't vote for a black president? Or the 9% who said they wouldn't vote for a Jew?

How about the 96 percent who voted for a black president?

If 96 percent of white folks are willing to vote for a black president, where's the racism?

Will all due respect to your disability, you haven't experienced anything like the horrors that the black community had to suffer under American white rule, so to try and tell them that the protections they bled and died to win don't lead to a freer and more successful society is pretty thoughtless of you.

Right, because black children are routinely told that they cannot go to public school, and have to go to the special deaf people school. That's not been the case since Brown, back in the 50s.

Ask me how many points I got on my college admissions for being deaf.

What have black people suffered under the past 30 years in America moreso than anyone else? Are there more black people on the supreme court than deaf people? Representatives? Senators?

[Ben Kenobi]

Those things are demonstrably not true in the same way that it's demonstrably true that homosexuality is completely normal (and not just in humans).

Remember, I'm working from the standpoint that sin is not just normal, it's impossible to avoid sinning. Just because people choose to sin, doesn't make it less sinful.

Posting it in the context of a religious discussion about different christian beliefs about sin doesn't seem unreasonable.

Posting it repeatedly (in every thread I seem to read you post in) in threads that don't mention religion seems extreme to me. Also you seem to single out one sin above all others. I don't see you repeatedly banging on about all the other things that are sinful every time they are mentioned. eg. heterosexual posters engaged in extramarital affairs don't get the focussed abuse you give the gay posters.

And that's the distinction between expressing an opinion being ok, and not being ok.

This thread is about the CEO of Chik-Fil-A who expressed the same opinion I am expressing here. Ergo, it is very much on topic.

As for the rest, people start threads on fornication? I haven't seen many my time here. Surely you see that this topic gets considerably more topics created than everything else combined.

I've not started a thread on this probably in 7-8 years here.

[kentonio]

There's a difference between public schools and private enterprise. I agree that Brown was necessary, and I also agree that having separate facilities is inherently unequal.

Can't you see though how refusal of service across the private sector can be as discriminatory and have almost as big a negative effect on peoples lives as refusal of public services?

There are plenty of businesses here that do not cater to white folks. If they want to have their taco stand or the iglesias, that's perfectly fine by me. That's how freedom is supposed to work. They have a target customer and I am not their target customer.

Do not cater, how? Do they refuse to serve white customers?

I used to live in little Vietnam when I was in Vancouver. And I saw the same thing there. I've lived in many places where I was a minority not just on my hearing. Would you shut these businesses down because they don't hire white people?

Do white people apply for jobs there in significant numbers? Do they hire publically on a regular basis but only consider asian applicants?

The collapse was a good thing. It was an opportunity to destroy malinvestment and fix the entire system. Unfortunately the 'private' businesses that were going to go under got bailed out rather than liquidated. They should have been allowed to fail.

Apart from the huge human cost, I tend to agree. I imagine my 'fixed' system would differ quite substantially from yours however.

How about the 96 percent who voted for a black president?

I'm pretty sure 96% of America didn't vote for Obama.

If 96 percent of white folks are willing to vote for a black president, where's the racism?

4% of Americans were willing to publcially admit they wouldn't vote for a black president. That's 12 million(ish) people who are openly racist. How many more do you think might be racist but not willing to say so to a stranger?

What have black people suffered under the past 30 years in America moreso than anyone else? Are there more black people on the supreme court than deaf people? Representatives? Senators?

There's also considerably more black people in America than deaf people. I'm not having a go at your disability anyway, if you remember I come from the communist liberal hell of euroland.