A Bible question!!

[Elok]

Sorry, I posted that in haste while coming off a rather bad "border run" (long story). For a more polite and less grumpy version of my opinion, see the edit I posted a split second before your reply. I actually have read at least the legal summary of Roe v. Wade. As I recall, Byron White made the exact same objection I did--that he felt the court was concocting a right out of thin air. Rehnquist concurred with that dissenting opinion, while adding a long list of objections of his own, such as the separation into trimesters being arbitrary and not relevant.

EDIT: To be perfectly clear, I understand that RvW did not come about independently, but was the result of precedent established in at least one prior SCOTUS case. I'm too lazy to look it up, but it involved a Connecticut law against contraception. The court argued that laws against contraceptives were an unwarranted intrusion on the woman's privacy, and struck it down. I believe there was a dissenting opinion in that case as well--if there wasn't, I certainly think there should have been--that, while the law in question was asinine (I know I think so), the court exceeded its authority in claiming a right to privacy extending to specifics in that way.

[Kidlicious]

Aeson,
Divorced women had very few options then. I think that's why Jesus said, "causes her to become an adultress." Jesus actually made divorcing a women a sin.

And remember Christ had the authority to do what He did to the money changers, others do not.

[Barnabas]

Divorcing is not a sin, what Jesus said is that you can divorce, but you can't remarry while your divorced ex partner is alive.
Jesus gave the example of adultery as something that could justify a divorce

[Kidlicious]

I can understand and respect this argument, but would simply point out that it is, again, an appeal to another authority rather than to one's own understanding in order to avoid interpreting the bible as it is written. That is fine for you as an individual believer, but doesn't make a case for the use of anything in the bible as a guide for anything but individual behavior (which, I note in advance, you may not even be arguing for).

I wouldn't expect anyone to behave a certain way because I do, because I would never do the same.

Speaking of my interpretion of the Bible I pray to the Holy Spirit and believe He answers.

[Ben Kenobi]

I haven't posted here since 2003, but I felt the need to come back and call you a complete dick for that line.

Do you believe that the unborn is a human person? I suspect the answer is no.

You might want to talk to Dr. Barnard Nathanson. He admitted to falsifying the number of women who died from abortion when it was illegal. More women die today from legal abortion than ever died from illegal abortion.

There have been cases at least in Canada, where abortion clinics have sued the government to prevent the same standards which apply to all medical clinics from being applied to them. There have been clinics shut down for unsanitary disposal of human remains, for septic contamination and lots of other kind and nice things.

This is under legal abortion.

Now, you are arguing that if we banned abortion that women would kill themselves with coathanger? Well, let's go ask Nathanson what he had to say about that. He said that the argument was nonsense and that women in that situation would simply be referred to a doctor that practiced abortion, pay him and be done.

So yes, go ahead and perpetuate the myth that women died from coathanger abortion in any significant numbers during the period in which abortion was illegal. Maybe one day we'll see a mythbusters episode.

[Kidlicious]

Divorcing is not a sin, what Jesus said is that you can divorce, but you can't remarry while your divorced ex partner is alive.
Jesus gave the example of adultery as something that could justify a divorce

Ah I think audultery is the Only justification, the way I read it.

[kentonio]

Do you believe that the unborn is a human person? I suspect the answer is no.

Correct.

You might want to talk to Dr. Barnard Nathanson. He admitted to falsifying the number of women who died from abortion when it was illegal. More women die today from legal abortion than ever died from illegal abortion.

Except thats a nonsense figure, because many deaths from illegal abortions would not have been registered as such.

There have been cases at least in Canada, where abortion clinics have sued the government to prevent the same standards which apply to all medical clinics from being applied to them. There have been clinics shut down for unsanitary disposal of human remains, for septic contamination and lots of other kind and nice things.

This is under legal abortion.

Which proves what exactly?

Now, you are arguing that if we banned abortion that women would kill themselves with coathanger? Well, let's go ask Nathanson what he had to say about that. He said that the argument was nonsense and that women in that situation would simply be referred to a doctor that practiced abortion, pay him and be done.

How many doctors do you think are willing to carry out illegal procedures which if discovered would mean the loss of their medical license and probably their imprisonment? The danger of illegal abortions isn't just women trying to carry out incredibly dangerous acts themselves, but the rebirth of the old blackmarket abortion services where ex-doctors or sometimes just random people would charge women money to carry out unsafe procedures for them. This is widely documented over centuries.

So yes, go ahead and perpetuate the myth that women died from coathanger abortion in any significant numbers during the period in which abortion was illegal. Maybe one day we'll see a mythbusters episode.

Complete nonsense. So what do you believe? That if abortion is illegal women just don't have abortions? Or that they somehow carry out perfectly safe self abortions with no medical support?

A question for you btw, what exactly do you think gives you or anyone else the right to tell women what they can or cannot do with their bodies?

[Ben Kenobi]

Correct.

Then that explains why you were offended. Good. You were one of the people I hoped would be offended.

Except thats a nonsense figure, because many deaths from illegal abortions would not have been registered as such.

Dr. Barnard Nathanson is the one who came up with the figures that you are using in the first place. He admitted that he lied about the number in order to push legal abortion.

Don't believe it? Look him up. They wanted a scary number so he made up 10 thousand a year, which you've probably heard. Do you want to know what the real number was?

Which proves what exactly?

That abortion clinics when abortion is legal are putting the lives of women at risk by conducting delicate surgery in unsanitary conditions.

How many doctors do you think are willing to carry out illegal procedures which if discovered would mean the loss of their medical license and probably their imprisonment?

Dr. Nathanson operated under those conditions at the beginning of his career. The big difference when it became legal is that the business expanded 10x and so did his profits. It was a profitable business back in the 50s, and if the law were ever changed, it would continue to be so. I don't see why doctors would be unwilling to become abortionists just because it happened to be illegal.

The danger of illegal abortions isn't just women trying to carry out incredibly dangerous acts themselves, but the rebirth of the old blackmarket abortion services where ex-doctors or sometimes just random people would charge women money to carry out unsafe procedures for them.

According to Dr. Nathanson, again, who worked in the business during that time, this is patent nonsense. The doctors were trained and accredited.

This is widely documented over centuries.

Are you aware of the current push by abortion providers to using non-doctors? They are lobbying very hard to remove restrictions requiring them to use physicians.

Complete nonsense. So what do you believe? That if abortion is illegal women just don't have abortions?

That they were safer under illegal rather than legal abortion. Sad, but true. There will always be a demand for abortion, this I know. However, the state can drastically reduce their number by banning it altogether and charging doctors who participate with loss of licensing and arrest.

A question for you btw, what exactly do you think gives you or anyone else the right to tell women what they can or cannot do with their bodies?

What gives you the right to kill another person just because she happens to live in your body?

[Dinner]

Ken, you're new here so I'll let you in on an open secret. Everyone has Ben on ignore because he's an lying ass clown who is not worth talking to. If you are hard headed and want to learn that fact yourself, fair enough, but please don't quote him while you're doing though because that means the 90%+ of us who do have him on ignore then see his posts.

[BlackCat]

What gives you the right to kill another person just because she happens to live in your body?

If that was the case, you were right, but since that isn't true, you're wrong.

[Ben Kenobi]

Oerdin is the sexiest man alive. Men would do well to know and emulate him.

[Ben Kenobi]

If that was the case, you were right, but since that isn't true, you're wrong.

Which brings us back to the main point. Since you believe that the unborn child isn't a human person, what is it?

[BlackCat]

Oerdin, someone that registered in 2002 can't exactly be called a newbie

He might not have written anything, but you can't say what he have read.

[Ben Kenobi]

He's been around longer than I have!

[kentonio]

Then that explains why you were offended. Good. You were one of the people I hoped would be offended.

There's a difference between offended and irritated.

Dr. Barnard Nathanson is the one who came up with the figures that you are using in the first place. He admitted that he lied about the number in order to push legal abortion.

Remind me which figures I used?

Don't believe it? Look him up. They wanted a scary number so he made up 10 thousand a year, which you've probably heard. Do you want to know what the real number was?

I'd love to, but unfortunately it's an impossible peice of information to know. When something is illegal (and especially illegal and frowned upon by morally uptight *******s) people tend to not report things, people write up deaths as something else (so as not to disgrace families) and suchlike.

That abortion clinics when abortion is legal are putting the lives of women at risk by conducting delicate surgery in unsanitary conditions.

I've heard of hospitals that have been found on investigation to have unsanitary conditions. Should we say that hospitals are putting peoples lives at risk and try and ban them too?

Dr. Nathanson operated under those conditions at the beginning of his career. The big difference when it became legal is that the business expanded 10x and so did his profits. It was a profitable business back in the 50s, and if the law were ever changed, it would continue to be so. I don't see why doctors would be unwilling to become abortionists just because it happened to be illegal.

So let me get this right, you think that abortion should be banned and that it'll be ok because doctors can just break the law and do abortions anyway, and if people do die then they deserve it anyway? Is that a fair summary of your position?

According to Dr. Nathanson, again, who worked in the business during that time, this is patent nonsense. The doctors were trained and accredited.

So we're to ignore everything Nathanson said prior to this change from pro-choice to anti-choice, but then everything he said after that point is gospel?

Are you aware of the current push by abortion providers to using non-doctors? They are lobbying very hard to remove restrictions requiring them to use physicians.

It's a medical procedure that I'm in no way qualified to assess whether it needs a doctor or not. What I do feel qualified to say however is that it needs a medical facility and real healthcare professionals, not some quack in a back alley with a coathangar.