A Thread on Race and Multiculturalism for Hera

[giblets]

Yes, of course. So? this is my point. You don't define yourself as muslim, by faith, however when a muslim (even nominally only) converts, it bothers you. Why is this the case? It is because socio-cultural identities and religious ones are deeply intertwined, since both define norms of social and personal behavior.

In my opinion, this is really screwy, even in globe trotting religions such as Xianity and Islam. Xianity has warped outside its Euro-mid-western habitats, But in Islam this is even harder:

While Islam is a world-wide religion, one cannot distance themselves from the fact that its roots are deeply mid-eastern. You cannot have a copy of its holy scripture which is not in Arabic, and claim it to be authentic, even. Isn't this the case?

This dissonance is deepened by the fact that Islam is also deeply political, i.e. one cannot even attempt to distance their faith from civil society, like Christians claim ( a claim weakened in the centralized catholic faith). And yet, the leading Muslim political forces and powerhouses haven't been Arab in culture for almost a millennium (Berbers, Mameluks, Persians, Turks, Indian Subcontinent )

The ones, suffering the most of it are not the "newcomers" to the religion, but the ones who self-identify culturally as Arabs, since they have been the one who lost the true political power, while still being given lip service to the importance of Arab culture by all other dwellers of Islam as a domain of socio-religious thought.

You're just weird. I don't have a hissy fit if a Christian converts to some other religion.

[giblets]

Who goes from atheist to Christian? Who goes from Muslim to Christian, for that matter? Yes, I'm sure these things happen but doesn't atheist to religious sound odd? And conversion from Islam to Christianity is so beyond the traditional Islamic experience it is bizarre. Christians convert to Islam. Muslims do not convert to Christianity.

And let's get real. A Muslim-raised atheist Pakistani in Georgia who loves this Christian girl... hmm... Georgia... something tells me the atheist, Muslim-born Pakistani with the white Christian girl wasn't going to fly in that community.

I know I look really bad criticizing someone's personal decision of faith but I don't think Imran wasn't pressured by his surroundings.

What an obnoxious double standard. It's okay if Christians convert to Islam but if a Muslim converts to Christianity you're going to attack their sincerity?

[Imran Siddiqui]

'Tis amusing that I was able to (quite easily mind) convince Ben of my sincerity of conversion. Yet, it is the atheists (well, at least one) that have an issue with it and assume it is solely pressured and thus not real. Then again, for whatever I do think of Ben, he most definitely has faith in Jesus Christ and thus can more easily notice a believer.

The fiance has probably done as much growth in her faith as I have in mine, as I have my own ideas of faith (for example, I am more liturgically minded than her and have had an influence on her due to that fact).

[MikeH]

It's just Alby!

Don't hold all Athiests to Alby's views and we won't hold you accountable for Ben's views!

[Az]

MikeH , as often is the case.



Though, lol if you think that Albie's angry at this conversion because he's an atheist, he admitted this himself.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's just Alby!

Don't hold all Athiests to Alby's views and we won't hold you accountable for Ben's views!

Some of you do . Though a few have questioned my sincerity, IIRC.

[Ben Kenobi]

Imran, for all our disagreements, thanks for the kind words. Yeah, I think you are wrong about stuff, and I know you feel the same about me.

But there's stuff we do agree upon, and I'm grateful for the path that you've chosen.

I just hope you're happy with it, that is all. I know it can be difficult to deal with family.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Family will always be an issue, but alas. Maybe one day they'll come around.

And no two Christians think the other is completely right about everything (though I do try to insist on agreement on the Nicene Creed at least!!) .

Though, interestingly enough, the love of Jesus has made me a flaming lefty . I've become very strident in favor of the welfare state, against the death penalty, etc. 'Tis strange, but sometimes being "born again" isn't just words...

[Ben Kenobi]

Well good luck with your family, then.

As for the welfare state. The only issue I have is that charity ought to be voluntary. We should help them because we choose to help them, not because the state mugs us.

[Imran Siddiqui]

God can see our hearts in which ever way we give. Ancient Isreael was ordered to provide for the poor and widows (ie, people forbidden from gleaning all of their crops) and, of course, Nehemiah, in charge of Isreael, mandated debt cancellation and all seized collateral for not paying debts be returned to those people - seems like government mandated debt cancelation to me. Of course we can go around in circles on this.

[Ben Kenobi]

They also forbade intermarriage between Jews and other people, as well as mandating the death penalty. So I'm not really sure how you can square 'no dealth penalty', with 'forced seizure of income'.

Income taxes are really very new. Wasn't until 1917 that they were instituted in the US. Since then we've seen the growth of government well out of proportion to the general population.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Income taxes are just a new way of providing for the poor (well, originally for paying for warfare). Harder to levy it when you don't have the institutions in place that allows you to verify income.

I just think that providing for the poor through taxation or restrictions on the haves squares with Jesus's 2nd Commandment and his requirement of love. The prohibitions on intermarriage as well as dealth penalty (for obvious reasons) do not (as did not punishments for healing on the Sabbath and eating "unclean" animals).

I prefer a Christological view of Scripture (the Gospels are the fulcrum).

[Ben Kenobi]

I just think that providing for the poor through taxation or restrictions on the haves squares with Jesus's 2nd Commandment and his requirement of love. The prohibitions on intermarriage as well as dealth penalty (for obvious reasons) do not (as did not punishments for healing on the Sabbath and eating "unclean" animals).

You can't force someone to love another person. Christ says to love your neighbour as yourself. Are we loving our neighbour if we force him to pony up?

As for income taxes in general, I'd be happy with a federal budget equal to 1946 adjusted for the growth in population. That would mean budget spending of about 1 trillion dollars a year. Current proposed outlays by BO is 3.7 trillion dollars,

I'd like to see taxes slashed by 2.5x and the overall budget quartered.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yes, I think we are loving our neighbor as ourselves if we ask him to pony up to help provide for the poor and destitute. For one, I think the lack of health care for all is unconscionable.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, I think we are loving our neighbor as ourselves if we ask him to pony up to help provide for the poor and destitute. For one, I think the lack of health care for all is unconscionable.

Ask, fine, but that's not how taxes work. Are you willing to make taxes optional? If so, I wholeheartedly agree with the plan. Have the government mail out suggested contributions, and do away with automatic withholding.