A Song Of Ice And Fire: book discussion thread

[Dinner]

Which, I guess, still leaves the distant possibility that Stannis, Theon, and co have been wiped out.

Of course we all assume that Mellisandre is going to resurrect Jon Snow a la Beric Dondarion, right?

I suspect that's what will happen but I was really hoping he wouldn't go with more supernatural junk.

[Dinner]

Wait, I think I see what I'm confused about... I forgot that Ramsey sent that crazy, taunting letter to Jon, just before that Julius Caesar scene.

Frankly, I never believed a word of it to begin with, so I still think my take could be accurate.

EDIT: As an example of similar games played in previous books, think of when Lord Too-Fat-To-Sit-A-Horse "executed" Davos.

The Frey Pie was both disgusting but also hilarious at the same time. The fat bastard was even cheeky enough to have a bite or two of it himself as well. Tell me that's not a good revenge. He fed the Freys & Boltons some of their own relatives and he did it under the guise of guest rights which are the same rules the Freys broke at the red wedding!

[Guynemer]

As I said, it took all of one scene for Manderly to become my favorite Northman.

[Felch]

I suspect that's what will happen but I was really hoping he wouldn't go with more supernatural junk.

The supernatural junk has been on the rise since the rebirth of the dragons. I thought that was the whole point of the series.

[Dinner]

Yes, but that doesn't mean you have to use magic in every scene. Any way I see one of three scenarios as happening WRT Lord Snow:

1) He dies a "true death" but goes into the Wolf's body as we know wargs can do that. This he can do on his own.

2) He dies but is brought back by Melisandre. This makes him in debt to the lord of light & his priests who I still think are actually evil.

3) He doesn't die but is gravelly wounded and saved just before they can finish him off either by the wolf, by loyal black cloaks, or most likely of all by wildings whose lives Jon Snow had saved.

[Guynemer]

I would love if #3 came to pass; the many-titled Wilding I can never remember the name of, the defacto post-Mance leader, is funny as hell, and seems like a genuinely good fellow.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The supernatural junk has been on the rise since the rebirth of the dragons. I thought that was the whole point of the series.

Seriously. I was about to post a rebuttal, but this is quite on point. It's a fantasy series and Martin is not shy about using magic, even if its not mages facing off or stuff like that.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yes, but that doesn't mean you have to use magic in every scene. Any way I see one of three scenarios as happening WRT Lord Snow:

1) He dies a "true death" but goes into the Wolf's body as we know wargs can do that. This he can do on his own.

2) He dies but is brought back by Melisandre. This makes him in debt to the lord of light & his priests who I still think are actually evil.

3) He doesn't die but is gravelly wounded and saved just before they can finish him off either by the wolf, by loyal black cloaks, or most likely of all by wildings whose lives Jon Snow had saved.

Not that I ever want to really speculate for Martin (since he delights in doing crazy stuff), but I assumed Jon was to die and be resurrected so he could really be Azor Ahai reborn (it seems obvious that Melissandre has basically realized Stannis isn't the One, but Jon Snow might be).

[Felch]

There's a common theme in Sci-Fi and Fantasy with reason giving way to mysticism. I've noticed it in these books, in Battlestar Galactica, and in Lost. I don't know if it's just a cheap way to cover plot holes, or if the writers are trying to make a statement, but it always pisses people off.

[Imran Siddiqui]

There is a reason they are sci-fi and fantasy in the first place. There are fantastical things in the story to begin with and any writer worth his salt will incorporate those into the story rather than just background filler.

[Krill]

So long as they aren't Deus Ex Machinae, that's fine...gotta wait for the series to complete before that can be claimed, though.

[Dinner]

I always thought it was a matter of degrees. Yes, in a fantasy series you want and need some fantasy magic but if magic is the solution to every problem and every challenge then it becomes rather mundane & ordinary so the magic stops being magical. If you know what I mean. I'd rather magic be saved for rare but very cool and dramatic things.

[Imran Siddiqui]

As it is in Song of Ice and Fire... however, one of themes is that Winter is bringing more magic back into the world. The Others are countered by R'hillor's priests.

[Felch]

Yeah, there's a shift towards magic, a growth of supernatural power, and Imran's right that it's growing with the coming winter. But my point was that this fall of science and growth of magic theme has come up a few times in big series. Battlestar Galactica started out with hard science, and by the end the survivors completely rejected science. Lost had science and faith going head to head, with faith coming out triumphant in the end. Tolkien had the opposite theme; his elves and ancient super-humans faded away.

[Imran Siddiqui]

In the new BSG, though, faith was always there under the surface, much to the chagrin of those "hard science" sci-fi fans who wanted Ron Moore to stop with all this prophecy and one God of the Cylons vs. the polytheism of humanity storyline. I feel that Moore had this arc in mind when he started.

As for Tolkien, I see that fading away to be a warning of what may be happening in his world.