A Song Of Ice And Fire: book discussion thread

[Dinner]

He may be famous as the Kingslayer, but he's put up a few other kills too (mostly off camera, but...)

mostly by being better at fighting than them. Can't recall any other murders.

Tywin Lannister did tell Jaime he needed to stop being so concerned with being honorable and caring what other people think of him (when Jaime refused to kill Ned because the man-at-arms had stabbed him in the leg). That implies he has a pattern of being honorable in combat or at least trying to keep appearances up.

[Dinner]

Oh yeah, Brandon.

Raping his brother's wife and then letting all of his men do the same wasn't very nice either though you could say his father influenced him to do that.

[MikeH]

I don't recall Jamie being involved in that. He lied to Tyrion, but the raping was the guards (and finally Tyrion) and it was entirely his father's order.

[Dinner]

Now that I think of it I guess you're right. Jaime just set the whole thing up (but didn't fully know what his father was planning) and lied about the girl being a whore when she really wasn't. I remembered that all the men got to rape her and that Tywin made Tyrion join in last of all but couldn't remember exactly how Jaime was involved and had to wiki it.

When I was looking it up I found some huge theory about the Fisherman's Wife in Braavos being Tyrion's ex-wife but the evidence didn't sound all that convincing.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Jaime is a good guy in terms of his recent history and so is Tyrion. And I don't think Arya's killing of people who deserve it or Sansa's naive stupidity makes them less "good" (after all, Ned killed people who deserved it and was naively stupid, leading to his death - and everyone calls him a good guy).

[MikeH]

I see Ned as more executioner than murderer.

[MikeH]

And Arya's morals on who should be killed now is suspect at best these days I think.

[Jon Miller]

Who is a 'good guy' in it anyway?

The good guys are mostly dead.

I haven't read the last book, but Brienne?

JM

[Jon Miller]

So basically it's about real life.

There are 'good guys' in real life (although no perfect people).

That is some of my issue with the grim dark books/etc, if everyone is an evil monster... why should I be reading this?

I don't feel this is the case for GRR Martin, although I know that some people do.

JM

[Jon Miller]

The Starks are just a lesson in how trying to be honourable or good is an evolutionary disadvantage.

Maybe for that individual, but not for society (in general).

JM

[Jon Miller]

I think the fact you know your favourite characters could actually die at any time is refreshing, it makes it genuinely exciting.

Things like the Red Wedding are example of consequences. While it was the result of Robb's choice (and the Frey's), it was also heavily the result of how Ned and Catelyn raised Robb and Jon.

JM

[MikeH]

After a bit of reflection I think that really in this series there's no benefit or negative to being good or bad. Bad stuff can and probably will happen to you either way.

[Dinner]

I disagree. Sure, bad stuff can randomly happen to anyone but making a principled stand (if a stupid one) increases your odds of dying in a violent society (as this is supposed to be). Where as doing something dishonorable but highly advantagous to you/your cause helps your chances of survival (see Red Wedding).

[Main_Brain]

Re: Constant Killing of Characters.

It gets boring after a while. Because its hard to establish a connection to any Characters since they are all sociopathic and/or naive*, I for one do not care wheter they stay or die. Also I always get the Feeling there is no bigger Plan on the Authors Side, the obligatory Replacement Chars remain shallow at best. :/


*one Exception

[Dinner]

I have that problem too. It's hard to connect with characters when there are so many and they keep dying but that said there are characters who have survived the whole series. John Snow, Sansa, the Queen, Jamie, the Tyrgarian princess, Bran & Riccon Stark, Sam, Theon, etc...