A Song Of Ice And Fire: book discussion thread

[regexcellent]

Bran possessing Hodor to save his and everyone else's lives is okay.

I supposed the other times aren't as nice, but they're not really horrible.

[Krill]

I think stupid can be evil.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Stupid can be evil, but it is not necessarily evil.

To be evil, you have to deliberately want to cause pain. Not do it through utter negligence.

For a Godwin example: Neville Chamberlain = stupid, but not evil

[Cort Haus]

I don't think someone has to be as far bad as evil to not be a good guy. Tyrion and Arya aren't evil, even though they are killers.

If anything, the books are good at blowing away the whole simplistic duality. Being well-intentioned but incredibly stupid can make someone dangerous for other people's health, and actions can have good and bad results. By saving the lives of Rorge and Biter, many innocents were condemned to suffer for their future crimes, without calculating whatever the eventual net effect of Arya and Jaqen H'gar's intersection might be.

We all badly wanted Joffrey to be killed, I expect, because that must surely be a good thing, yet bad things followed.

[Imran Siddiqui]

But probably better things than if Joffrey survived .

[Hauldren Collider]

Guys, you really should use spoiler tags...

[Cort Haus]

Oops, sorry.

I thought everyone had read them by now.

[Hauldren Collider]

Wait, my bad, this is the book thread. Sorry.

[Jon Miller]

Also a fan of Davos and Brienne. I am not sure why people complained abou the Crows book, we got lots of Brienne!

JM

[Jon Miller]

Also a fan of Davos and Brienne. I am not sure why people complained abou the Crows book, we got lots of Brienne!

JM

[Cort Haus]

Brienne embodies the noble idealism of knighthood, which the actual knights completely fail to do. As Sandor Clegane explains to the having-to-catch-up-on-a-few-harsh-realities-Sansa, the knights in reality are anything but what they are supposed to be - his brother being a prime example.

I've read stuff on forums where many readers hate Brienne's downbeat POV chapters, even if they like her as a character, but I don't agree. She has a simple innocent purity, backed by a total, self-sacrificing, selfless loyalty, and as the saga develops and we run out of factions and characters we can root for, Brienne's awful, tragic story with her tireless commitment to her vows stands out when other faves such as Tyrion disappoint us, and Arya increasingly seems like a bag of squirming vengeance (but I still love her).

Davos has a more complicated story, as his loyalty to Stannis and general decency is conflicted by his unease about Melisandre and her actions. Yet there is a pervasive sense that Melisandre is one of the few characters focused on the real problem - the Others, so despite her trail of charred corpses, she might actually be Doing The Needful if her religion and magic can help deal with the Ice.

[Cort Haus]

Oh, and the love that develops between Brienne and the Jaime-on-the-path-of-redemption is probably the most powerful relationship in the books.

[Imran Siddiqui]

... which may be a good reason wishing for Stannis and Melissandre to survive, at least to tell Dany about it .

[regexcellent]

Stannis is awesome and he is IMO the best candidate for king.

****, he employs Davos and that's enough on its own.

[Dinner]

Yes, Brienne is completely blameless as a major character. I was going to say Bran, but he's actually did something pretty awful. Jon is a stand-up guy, can't think of anything truly bad that he has done.

Oh, duh. Mother****ing Ser Davos Seaworth, Hand to the King. The moral center of the books after the departure of Ned.

I like how Brienne is an exceptional character in that regard though and how she's seen as naive, unrealistic, and believer in fairy tales because of how she thinks knights should behave. None of GRRM's characters really are black or white and instead are shades of grey which makes the series much more interesting and, yes, believable. Compare that to the fantasy authors of the 70's and 80's (even the early 90's) where the good guys are pretty much all good and the bad guys are pretty much all bad.