A Song Of Ice And Fire: book discussion thread

[Felch]

I agree that faith was always under the surface. It waxed over the course of the show, and eventually was dominant.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I think the complaints about faith and belief on BSG were less about the fact that it was there at all and more about the fact that it was extremely undefined and given as the explanation-by-default for several events that were set up as big mysteries.

[Imran Siddiqui]

To a believer that doesn't sound all that controversial at all (of course big mysteries are vaguely "explained" through 'miracles'). Though I can see to a non-believer where it may appear "WTF".

[flash9286]

There's a common theme in Sci-Fi and Fantasy with reason giving way to mysticism. I've noticed it in these books, in Battlestar Galactica, and in Lost. I don't know if it's just a cheap way to cover plot holes, or if the writers are trying to make a statement, but it always pisses people off.

People were pissed off at BSG and Lost and because they used it to cover up their ****ty plot holes and tried to use it to wrap up story lines that were beyond reconciliation.

[MikeH]

As it is in Song of Ice and Fire... however, one of themes is that Winter is bringing more magic back into the world. The Others are countered by R'hillor's priests.

There's a comment somewhere about magic tailing off since the dragons died, but you can't be sure if the lack of dragons caused the lack of magic, or if the lack of magic caused the lack of dragons. The person saying that might have been mistaken.

And it's the Song of Ice and Fire, in the end I think the human conflicts will turn out to be mostly trivial.

[MikeH]

I wonder if that chapter is implying Stannis (and Asha and Theon maybe) might be away from the camp when it's overrun and therefore they escape together.

[Imran Siddiqui]

And it's the Song of Ice and Fire, in the end I think the human conflicts will turn out to be mostly trivial.

There is that - the name of the series provides a big clue. Who represents Ice and who represents Fire? Ice is easy - the Others. Fire is a bit harder - Dany & her dragons or R'hillor's people, or perhaps both combine. But in the end it refers to magical things.

[MikeH]

I certainly agree with the general point that complaining about the fantasy elements of a fantasy novel is retarded.

[MikeH]

Is Ice The Others or is it Winter which The Others are merely a symptom of?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Is Ice The Others or is it Winter which The Others are merely a symptom of?

I think you may have just blown my mind.

[Guynemer]

I'm trying to come up with some situation where the Watch (and maybe the Wildings) represent Ice, and something else (dragons, the Red Prests, what-have-you) represent Fire, but I'm struggling.

[Fve Crathva]

There is a reason they are sci-fi and fantasy in the first place. There are fantastical things in the story to begin with and any writer worth his salt will incorporate those into the story rather than just background filler.

There's a difference between mysticism and fantasy, and cheap expositional tricks like prophecy and destiny. See Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy for an example of that trope being subverted (not totally successfully, but mostly). In fact most of the modern fantasy I've read lately has avoided using those techniques, possibly in response to the Wheel of Time series (in which all the characters are basically passive actors dragged around according to their destinies). That is one of the things I think people responded to in A Song of Ice and Fire: the characters feel the full consequences of their actions regardless of what their path appears to be. When there is prophecy, it is fallible and corrupt.

SP

[Jon Miller]

Consequences are one of the reasons why I really like SoIaF.

It being 'dark' or 'gritty' is not it, some of the greatest garbage is very 'dark' and 'gritty'.

JM

[MikeH]

I think the fact you know your favourite characters could actually die at any time is refreshing, it makes it genuinely exciting.

[Dinner]

I have to agree. I got genuinely upset when I red about the red wedding because I didn't think he'd kill so many main characters so soon after cutting Ned Stark's head off. After I calmed down I decided this wasn't the traditional hero fantasy style series where the good guy always wins in the end and that actually makes the series much more enjoyable.