Is anyone here unfortunate enough to be an obsessive racist?

[Asher]

Scripture never proves anything. It's horribly written, contradictory crap.

[notyoueither]

The fact that a whole bunch of people consider themselves to be Catholic isn't a valid argument.

As far as I know, being Catholic means you follow the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. Period.

I realize there's a great many (a majority, perhaps) of people labeling themselves as Catholic while picking and choosing random parts of the RCC Doctrine they like. That doesn't mean they're Catholic, it just means they identify as Catholic.

It makes no sense at all for someone who is pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, etc to consider themselves Catholics. At all. If they are following a doctrine separate and distinct from the RCC doctrine, they should call themselves something else.

See. That's the point. Ben's defining being gay is pretty retarded. So is your attempt to define faith for 6 or 7 billion other humans.

[Asher]

See. That's the point. Ben's defining being gay is pretty retarded. So is your attempt to define faith for 6 or 7 billion other humans.

I'm not defining faith, I'm defining Catholicism. And I'm not actually defining it -- it's already defined...

It all depends on your philosophy. The reason Catholicism exists as a term is as a general label, to describe the system of beliefs and church one belongs to. If your system of beliefs does not follow that of the label, it's an erroneous label.

That's it. Their faith or their beliefs are not less valid, they're just not "Catholic".

[Al B. Sure!]

Umm, while you definitely have a reasonable interpretation, it is not the only one (and there are reasons why people have not thought so often throughout history). Just because someone is saved by Christ doesn't mean that they even know of His existence.

Just like I could stop a terrorist (who had a nuclear bomb/etc), not have any proof of it, and then people could choose to beleive that they were never in any danger and that I didn't save them. Wouldn't change the fact that they were saved by me.

JM

Are you saying that Christ saves those who do not accept Him as their Savior?

1 John 5:11-12

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jon, you're a good guy and I understand what you, Imran, and heck millions of modern day Christians are trying to do... you're trying to rationalize the fact that God is a just and merciful God and that billions of people in the world do not believe in Him as stated in the New Testament and surely God would still save everyone!

Unfortunately, while that premise does exist in Islam, it is not in Christianity. Scripture, such as those verses I referenced, says clearly that a man must accept Christ as Savior to have eternal life. There's no room for ambiguity assuming the King James Bible is a reasonable translation.

It's good that most Christians have evolved to a position like you have where God saves all and there are many ways to reach God, etc., it's very tolerant of you, but it's not true Christianity as stated in Scripture.

[notyoueither]

What the hell? That was me and I was PROVING OUR POINT with SCRIPTURE!

The fun part of scripture is that it supports about 101 different interpretations.

The Bible is the Baskin Robbins of holy books.

The Quaran perfects it somewhat. There are only a couple dozen different sects.

[Al B. Sure!]

Remember, Jon, prima scriptura... where in Scripture does it say that unbelievers will be saved? It only says they shall not be saved.

[Al B. Sure!]

Scripture never proves anything. It's horribly written, contradictory crap.

IT IS WHAT CHRISTIANS ARE SUPPOSED TO TAKE AS THE WORD OF GOD!

Prima scriptura, Asher... it is the primary source of God's revelation.

[Asher]

IT IS WHAT CHRISTIANS ARE SUPPOSED TO TAKE AS THE WORD OF GOD!

Prima scriptura, Asher... it is the primary source of God's revelation.

Depends which translation you use, which interpretation you use, and which section of the bible you use.

If someone looks hard enough, and enough time has passed, I'm sure there's a passage about not eating cold Pizza on a thursday.

[Al B. Sure!]

Heck, most Protestant sects believe in SOLA scriptura, that the Bible is the ONLY thing necessary for holiness and salvation.

[Al B. Sure!]

Depends which translation you use, which interpretation you use, and which section of the bible you use.

If someone looks hard enough, and enough time has passed, I'm sure there's a passage about not eating cold Pizza on a thursday.

Why are you all not understanding that if the Bible says something over and over again (ie- salvation can only be had through Christ) and that the Bible is the Word of God and is the primary if not the ONLY source of knowledge as to holiness and salvation, that a form of Christianity which CONTRADICTS the Bible is invalid and NOT Christianity? What am I missing? I'm 100% sure of this! It is what is preached in churches throughout the world.

[Asher]

There is no One True Bible. That's what you are missing. Jon has explained a different interpretation, for example.

[DaShi]

God didn't write the bible.

[Al B. Sure!]

I'm tired to copying and pasting all these verses. I'll just say that when Jesus speaks to Nicodemus in John 3, it's very clear what Jesus is saying. There's no ambiguity... those who are not reborn through baptism and acceptance of Christ as Savior will not have eternal life. Flat out. Those who are, will have eternal life.

[notyoueither]

I'm not defining faith, I'm defining Catholicism. And I'm not actually defining it -- it's already defined...

You kicked this all off by making a profoundly ignorant pronouncement about which Catholics may have faith.

It all depends on your philosophy. The reason Catholicism exists as a term is as a general label, to describe the system of beliefs and church one belongs to. If your system of beliefs does not follow that of the label, it's an erroneous label.

That's it. Their faith or their beliefs are not less valid, they're just not "Catholic".

Catholics do not need your approval for how they define themselves.

They regularly ignore the pope.

Who the **** are you?

[Jon Miller]

Jon, you're a good guy and I understand what you, Imran, and heck millions of modern day Christians are trying to do... you're trying to rationalize the fact that God is a just and merciful God and that billions of people in the world do not believe in Him as stated in the New Testament and surely God would still save everyone!

It isn't a modern day Christian thing, it was even more common (probably?) in the first couple hundred years of Christianity.

Unfortunately, while that premise does exist in Islam, it is not in Christianity. Scripture, such as those verses I referenced, says clearly that a man must accept Christ as Savior to have eternal life. There's no room for ambiguity assuming the King James Bible is a reasonable translation.

KJV is not the best translation.

It's good that most Christians have evolved to a position like you have where God saves all and there are many ways to reach God, etc., it's very tolerant of you, but it's not true Christianity as stated in Scripture.

It isn't an evolution, as stated a large number of early churches were univeralists.

From Wiki:
In Christianity, Universalism refers to the belief that all humans can be saved through Jesus Christ and eventually come to harmony in God's kingdom. A related doctrine, apokatastasis, is the belief that all mortal beings will be reconciled to God, including Satan and his fallen angels. Universalism was a widely held but controversial view among theologians in Early Christianity: In the first five or six centuries of Christianity, there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa) were universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality, and one (Carthage or Rome) taught the endless punishment of the lost.

They thought that Christ saved everyone.

JM