Is anyone here unfortunate enough to be an obsessive racist?

[Jon Miller]

Check check check... and yet somehow different... You don't see that you're just making stuff up now, Jon? it's YOUR beliefs, not God's Word!

and who has not heard of Christ? I've said it before but the duty of the Christian is to spread God's Word and Gospel to ensure all have heard of Christ.

Heard of Christ doesn't mean have the oppurtunity to beleive in Christ. Many people even in europe know nothing of Him.

And I am not making stuff up. I am clearly interpreting the exact same verses and stories you are.

I don't think your interpretations are correct. I think you arrived at them due to talking to some people with specific interpretations in mind.

JM

[SlowwHand]

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2000.

St. Matthew 7-1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
7- 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Religion is deeply personal.

[Wezil]

****!

Two god threads now?

Quit threadjacking.

[Cort Haus]

(but you have to be English to eat fried bread)

Fortunately this habit is dying out. We have discovered toast.

Now, if the Merkins could just stop eating hash browns...

[Cort Haus]

I feel Speer's pain here. I think he needs to accept that Jon and Imran want to make it up as they go along, and as long as they are not bothering anybody, why not?

I do think that Jon is being exasperating when he claims that his view (which contradicts all the evidence that Speer provided) is supported by the scriptures, but refuses or is incapable of providing a shred of evidence.

It's all very well saying that one's faith is guided by the holy spirit (how much more subjective can you get?), and frankly, I think that's a far better system of faith than using the bible. It just means that the bible is practically irrelevant as a source of authority. It may still be a useful inspiration on an a-la-carte, individual level, but clearly no-one can say that their interpretation is right, and expect anyone else to believe them.

Finally, I don't think it's correct to say that only a Christian can have views on what constitutes Christianity, or a branch of it. I had Christianity rammed down my throat every school day for ten years, so I have a pretty good idea of at least one interpretation of it. When Christians can't even agree with each other what's going on, how are they in a position to reject out-of-hand the observations of those who may disbelieve, but have still learned much about it?

[Fve Crathva]

I could tell you the truth of Christianity, but you wouldn't believe me.

SP

[Jon Miller]

I feel Speer's pain here. I think he needs to accept that Jon and Imran want to make it up as they go along, and as long as they are not bothering anybody, why not?

I do think that Jon is being exasperating when he claims that his view (which contradicts all the evidence that Speer provided) is supported by the scriptures, but refuses or is incapable of providing a shred of evidence.

I gave tons of evidence. Every single bit of Alby's evidence is in favor of my interpretation, not just Alby's. So every verse Alby quoted are evidence that agrees with my intrepretation.

Did you read my posts? I gave specific examples that showed that my interpretation was also correct for the few verses quoted. It also fits with the narrative, which I feel that Alby's intreptation does not (which is why I disagree with it).

Alby gave no more evidence in favor of his interpretation than I gave of mine. My interpretation follows from the words and their meanings just as much as his.

Nothing is just made up as I go along, I provided linked evidence showing that interpretations that are even farther away from Alby's than my own were generally held previous to 400 AD.

You are assuming that Alby's definitions of the words are correct, and mine are incorrect, when both of ours (and our interpretations) are correct taking the verses independently. Which one should not do.

Read the Bible, think about what the verses say in context, pray, and you will be given understanding.

It's all very well saying that one's faith is guided by the holy spirit (how much more subjective can you get?), and frankly, I think that's a far better system of faith than using the bible. It just means that the bible is practically irrelevant as a source of authority. It may still be a useful inspiration on an a-la-carte, individual level, but clearly no-one can say that their interpretation is right, and expect anyone else to believe them.

Wrong. The problem is that you are misusing (because some Christians have) the Bible. Not that the Bible is not the source of authority.

The Bible has down the words of Christ. The problem is that Alby is misunderstanding them. This doesn't weaken the authority of something, people often misunderstand eachother today.

Additionally, the Bible is a story of the relationship of God and man. It isn't (generally) giving specific instructions to you in your life right now. Direction from God is gained by studying Him (through reading the Bible) and forming a relationship with Him (through prayer, worship, fellowship, service, and study).

Finally, I don't think it's correct to say that only a Christian can have views on what constitutes Christianity, or a branch of it. I had Christianity rammed down my throat every school day for ten years, so I have a pretty good idea of at least one interpretation of it. When Christians can't even agree with each other what's going on, how are they in a position to reject out-of-hand the observations of those who may disbelieve, but have still learned much about it?

Because while I disagere with Alby's interpretation, I know of people who have that interpretation who still understand Christianity. Many who are atheist, no t saying you, don't understand Christianity and so don't have relevant views on what constitutes Christianity.

The fact hat you claim to have it rammed down your throat for 10ish years suggest sto me that you don't understand Christianity.

A reason why I disagree with Alby's methods and interpretation is that it makes it more difficult for people to understand Christianity. A lot of people who bounce of Christianity do so because they mistake Christianity for something else (which s often caused by the literal/by verse methods).

Jon
(Note that I consider myself to be in union with those who take the Bible literally. I don't consider myself in union with those who consider the Bible as a collection of independent verses which give literal instructions to them.)

[Jon Miller]

If you beleive that Paul's writings are scripture, read Hebrews and think about it (and give up on this just reading verses). It will open your eyes.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%2011&version=NASB

But read all of Hebrews.

A modern writers thoughts on this:

http://www.comparativereligion.com/neverheard.html

JM

[Cort Haus]

By 'making it up as you go along' I wasn't referring to this thread, but your process of interpretation and the development of your faith on a personal level. It wasn't meant in a derogatory way.

I did read your posts, and every time you claimed to have presented evidence, I didn't see it.

As for the rest of it, I think you fail to understand my points as much as you claim I misunderstand yours. It's probably in both of our interests not to waste our time over it. I've already wasted enough.

[Jon Miller]

By 'making it up as you go along' I wasn't referring to this thread, but your process of interpretation and the development of your faith on a personal level. It wasn't meant in a derogatory way.

I did read your posts, and every time you claimed to have presented evidence, I didn't see it.

Words and statements have multiple meanings. I used the words in the correct fashion with meanings that were from the dictionary.

What is there not to see?

As for the rest of it, I think you fail to understand my points as much as you claim I misunderstand yours. It's probably in both of our interests not to waste our time over it. I've already wasted enough.

You are looking for A means B. Alby has provided less evidence for his interpretation than I have. He says X means Y, I say X means Z. I referred to (and quoted) passages which suggest that my interpretation of X (that it measn Z) is correct. He hasn't done so with X means Y.

JM

[Elok]

As for the whole prima/sola scriptura thing... the Bible itself is clear on this issue as well...

John 5:24-47

I'm really not seeing how that supports sola scriptura...really, the relevant scripture on that subject is the bit about knowing a tree by its fruits. That fun little idea of Luther's can have people as disparate as Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Anglicans, Methodists, and all the rest of Protestantism more or less convinced that they have the correct interpretation. If you posit that the Bible is all the guidance a Christian really needs, it follows that pretty much every detail must be unnecessary.

And all these varying interpretations are themselves "traditions of men," with thousands if not millions of pages of commentary apiece. They're just thousand-plus years younger traditions, and rooted in the ideas of renaissance Europe instead of the ancient near east. Pick your poison.

[RGBVideo]

Heh, nice image, and I've seen it before

Here's the source for it with similar images and a background explanation.

[Asher]

So hideous

[Al B. Sure!]

Okay gypsies are worse than the most blinged out rapper...





I'm actually a little surprised that this is the first time I've seen a gold tie. I would've thought someone would have done that before.