Is anyone here unfortunate enough to be an obsessive racist?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I do love Albert trying to explain Christianity to a believer and not understanding the concept of context or the fact that the Bible is a story of God and his plan and not a lawbook or a puzzle to figure out. In fact Jesus tells us that treating God as simply a lawgiver is a very wrongheaded approach and instead much reach God as one of love.

That and what's the point of sending down the Holy Spirit, if everything has been interpreted exactly the way it should be.

The amusing part is that Biblical literalists are a minority of believers, but Albert is trying to make them the one true Christians.

[MrFun]

Is it really this interesting to read posts made by atheists who don't know what they're talking about?

[Asher]

Does anyone know what they're talking about with religion?

No one agrees, everyone thinks other believers don't know what they're talking about.

Religion is deeply personal, which is one reason I've always found the clinical approach most churches take to be bizarre.

[Al B. Sure!]

Jon:

It's very clear... Maybe I need to explicitly delineate my argument and you can respond to each point by point and show why my 'interpretation' is incorrect with other verses in response or a more reasonable interpretation of the particular verses I chose:

1... one can only be saved through faith, not by works...
Ephesians 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2... Christ is the only way to salvation
John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

3... there is no other way to be saved
Acts 4:12

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

4... active and verbal confession of faith in Christ is necessary to be saved
Romans 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

5... those that do not accept Christ are not saved
1 John 5:11-12

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Now go ahead...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Religion is deeply personal, which is one reason I've always found the clinical approach most churches take to be bizarre.

Amen

I rather like the idea of Churches that treat their existence as simply a community of believers who are searching for God's truth. There are a few things that are non-negotiable, of course, for even those Churches (like Jesus being the Son of God, who died for the sins of all mankind and then resurrected, thereby conquering death), but realizing that they don't have all the answers for everyone and allowing each individual to come to God in their own way is important.

[Jon Miller]

Religion is about the relationship between God and man. To expect it to be as simple as Newton's law of univeral gravitation seems silly and wrong headed.

JM

[Fve Crathva]

I'm tired to copying and pasting all these verses. I'll just say that when Jesus speaks to Nicodemus in John 3, it's very clear what Jesus is saying. There's no ambiguity... those who are not reborn through baptism and acceptance of Christ as Savior will not have eternal life. Flat out. Those who are, will have eternal life.

If you exercise your imagination I think you'll find it's still pretty ambiguous, e.g. what does baptism mean, and what does acceptance mean, what is God's wrath, etc.

SP

[Jon Miller]

5"But now (I)I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, '(J)Where are You going?'
6"But because I have said these things to you, (K)sorrow has filled your heart.

7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the (L)Helper will not come to you; but if I go, (M)I will send Him to you.

8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

9concerning sin, (N)because they do not believe in Me;

10and concerning (O)righteousness, because (P)I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;

11(Q)and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

13"But when He, (R)the Spirit of truth, comes, He will (S)guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

14"He will (T)glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

15"(U)All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

----

The Bible doesn't include the total and sum total of all religious knowledge. The truth is more than that.

Jon

[Imran Siddiqui]

Albert you realize there is also Scriptural support for Christian universalism as well right?

(not all of these work, but plenty of them do)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism

Christian Universalists often point to the following Biblical teachings as evidence of Universalism:

* Jesus' prophecy that he will "draw all men" to himself (John 12:32)
* Jesus' teaching that God is "Our Father in heaven" (Matthew 6:9)
* Jesus' teaching that all things will be renewed. (Matthew 19:28)
* Jesus' teaching that the unforgiving servant will be turned "over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed." (Matthew 18:34)
* Jesus' statement that human beings are "gods" (John 10:34, quoting Psalm 82:6)
* Paul's teaching that human beings are God's "offspring" (Acts 17:28)
* Paul's teaching that there is "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" (Ephesians 4:6)
* Paul's teaching that "from [God] and through him and to him are all things" (Romans 11:36)
* Paul's prophecy that "as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive" (1 Corinthians 15:22)
* Paul's teaching that "just as the result of one trespass [by Adam] was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness [by Christ] was justification that brings life for all men. ... through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous" (Romans 5:18-19)
* Paul's teaching that "God was pleased (...)to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Colossians 1:19-20)
* Paul's statement that God "is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)
* Paul's teaching that "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them" (2 Corinthians 5:19)
* Paul's prophecy that "every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:10-11)
* Peter's teaching that Jesus "died for sins once for all" and "went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago" (1 Peter 3:18-20), so that they may "live according to God in regard to the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6)
* John's teaching that "[Jesus Christ] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2)
* Old Testament teaching that men and women are created "in the image of God" (Genesis 1:27)
* Old Testament teaching that "[God's] anger lasts only a moment" (Psalm 30:5)
* Old Testament teaching that "[God] is good; his love endures forever" (Psalm 106:1, 107:1)
* Old Testament teaching that "The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made. / All you have made will praise you, O LORD" (Psalm 145:9-10)

And interestingly, from the wiki article:

In the first five or six centuries of Christian history, the majority of theological schools in the East taught Universalism.

Like Jon was saying, it's about interpretation, realizing you are reading the stories in a context, and realizing you are reading a massive story and those parts fit into a larger whole.

[Al B. Sure!]

Religion is about the relationship between God and man. To expect it to be as simple as Newton's law of univeral gravitation seems silly and wrong headed.

JM

Cop out!!!!! just like your mere words of man before... your constant talk of interpretation without providing verses to support your claims... and then talk of larger wholes without actually giving any significant discussion of the larger whole supported by direct verses from Scripture.

[Jon Miller]

If you beleive in Christ you will be saved.

All who are saved are saved through Christ.

If you don't beleive Christ, you won't be saved.

I read the same, but somehow my interpretation is different from yours.

You only have the opportunity to beleive in Christ or not beleive in Him if you have heard about Him. This is a peice of logic you seem to be missing. Just because you haven't heard of Him doesn't mean that He can't save you.

JM

[Imran Siddiqui]

The Bible doesn't include the total and sum total of all religious knowledge. The truth is more than that.

The Bible is a vessel to get you closer to God. It is a mirror that illuminates God's face. However, there is more to God than simply his Word. And that is what the Spirit is for, to teach us new things. We can never truly know the entirety of God. We can only know a sliver of God; because we cannot comprehend His entirety.

In the Bible, God speaks to each person in their days, in their own ways. He speaks to them in ways they can understand and comprehend. And the Holy Spirit is here today to speak to us, in our day, in our ways, so that we can understand and comprehend. Our ability to understand may be greater, simply because we have their built up tradition, we can stand on the shoulders of.

To believe it all starts and ends with the Bible means you've stopped well short of where you are supposed to be.

[Jon Miller]

Cop out!!!!! just like your mere words of man before... your constant talk of interpretation without providing verses to support your claims... and then talk of larger wholes without actually giving any significant discussion of the larger whole supported by direct verses from Scripture.

Read Acts if you want to see that Paul and Peter disagreed (and that other Christians disagreed).

JM

[Al B. Sure!]

If you beleive in Christ you will be saved.

All who are saved are saved through Christ.

If you don't beleive Christ, you won't be saved.

I read the same, but somehow my interpretation is different from yours.

You only have the opportunity to beleive in Christ or not beleive in Him if you have heard about Him. This is a peice of logic you seem to be missing. Just because you haven't heard of Him doesn't mean that He can't save you.

JM

Check check check... and yet somehow different... You don't see that you're just making stuff up now, Jon? it's YOUR beliefs, not God's Word!

and who has not heard of Christ? I've said it before but the duty of the Christian is to spread God's Word and Gospel to ensure all have heard of Christ.

[Jon Miller]

The Bible is a vessel to get you closer to God. It is a mirror that illuminates God's face. However, there is more to God than simply his Word.

I disagree with that because God's Word was Christ. However, for His word yeah. The Bible is precious and Holy, but isn't the same thing as Christ (altough it tells about Christ).

I like the description of the Bible as a collection of stories/expressions of the relationship between God and man.

And that is what the Spirit is for, to teach us new things. We can never truly know the entirety of God. We can only know a sliver of God; because we cannot comprehend His entirety.


In the Bible, God speaks to each person in their days, in their own ways. He speaks to them in ways they can understand and comprehend. And the Holy Spirit is here today to speak to us, in our day, in our ways, so that we can understand and comprehend. Our ability to understand may be greater, simply because we have their built up tradition, we can stand on the shoulders of.

To believe it all starts and ends with the Bible means you've stopped well short of where you are supposed to be.