Is anyone here unfortunate enough to be an obsessive racist?

[Jon Miller]

Moses, Elisha, etc. weren't they all 'brought up' to God? And they still served YHWH anyway. Pagans who lived before Christ were considered to be in the circles of Hell according to the Catholic Church.

Jon, it doesn't take much google searching to find a crapload of Christian sites saying that Christ is the only way to Salvation. Are you saying these Christians have the WRONG interpretation? When their intrepretation is the literal reading of Scripture?

Did you read what I wrote?

The bit about me stopping the terrorist, and have saved those people even thought they didn't know who I was?

How about this. Imagine I was a doctor/etc. I discover some cure for a disease, but due to some reason (I don't want it to be patented, I want everyone to have it/etc) I make the information for free to the internet/etc.

People who think the drug works can make it and use it quickly, those that want to wait for the FDA have to wait too long/etc.

So the people who find it, trust me, and make the medicine and are saved through me (obviosuly).

But even those who have never heard of me, but run into the medicine in some way (from a friend, from some strange site on the net, etc), would still be saved through me. Even if they never heard of me.

Most think that what Christ did is available to all. Many have thought that it was a gift given to everyone. Some have even thought that the gift will keep being offered until it is accepted (I dont' really agree with this though, due to free will/etc).

JM

[Asher]

Really?

The Catholic Church has never changed to meet demands by people who belong to the Catholic Church?

Columbus was not Catholic?

I don't know the details about his religion, nor do I care in any way.

You are making highly offensive pronouncements about the nature of religion and the faith of religious people.

I'll call you a dog so long as you share fleas with Ben.

If it's offensive, it's only because people care more about the name of their faith in church than their faith in God. If they are offended by that, God help them.

I'm merely making a comment about a label and faith in an institution, you seem to keep thinking I'm making sweeping judgements about their spirituality and faith in God. Time to turn down the histrionics.

[notyoueither]

It's not Christianity. I contend vehemently and I am positive that there are a horde of Christian evangelicals who would agree with this, that there is no way the a man can have Salvation without acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior. Those who do not accept Christ will not have eternal life. It's very explicit in Scripture and is what those evangelical hordes believe. And the fact is, they're right!

Do you think the Mullahs who say that the way to paradise is through Jihad speak for the entirety of Islam?

[Jon Miller]

Where's the verses from Scripture that corroborate this?

Yes.

Paul and Peter disagreed about many things, for example (and with other Christians too).

Christ said that He was teaching easy stuff, that more serious/complicated stuff would come when people could understand it.

JM

[Al B. Sure!]

Do you think the Mullahs who say that the way to paradise is through Jihad speak for the entirety of Islam?

Islam is trickier because the Qur'an says explicitly that the People of the Book are not to be harmed and that they shall have paradise as well. Technically, the Islamists are not literally interpreting Scripture, unlike Protestant evangelicals who are.

[Asher]

Are you an atheist, Alby?

[Jon Miller]

Moses, Elisha, etc. weren't they all 'brought up' to God? And they still served YHWH anyway. Pagans who lived before Christ were considered to be in the circles of Hell according to the Catholic Church.

The catholic church is not very consistent with this.

JM

[SlowwHand]

What about this scenario?
A guy has been "bad" all of his life. He's robbed, he's raped, he's rutted with a rancid, rejected recluse and then murdered a menagerie of mothers. He's sentenced to death by execution.
As they prepare to inject him, they ask him if he has any last words.
He looks at the clergyman that has tried for months to get him to accept God but rejected the idea and says "GOTCHA! Forgive me for my sins dear Lord. OK, I'm ready."
I don't think that's going to get it.

[Al B. Sure!]

Yes.

Paul and Peter disagreed about many things, for example (and with other Christians too).

Christ said that He was teaching easy stuff, that more serious/complicated stuff would come when people could understand it.

JM

AGAIN, Jon... you keep saying things but it's YOU saying things... what are mere words of man to the Word of God?

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1450-the-bible-word-of-god-or-mere-words-of-men

Conclusion
A consideration of these texts and numerous others of like import, reveal several fundamental truths. The New Testament recognizes a certain body of literature as “the word of God.” Implicit in this expression is the fact that the message has been conveyed by means of words, and that its origin is divine. The doctrine of verbal inspiration could not have been enunciated more precisely. When this teaching is rejected, it is the result of liberal bias, not factual investigation.

Where is God's Word, Jon, that shows what you are saying? Where is the verse in Scripture that says that those who do not accept Christ as Savior are still Saved?

That's all you have to do, Jon. Just produce that verse. Granted, it would contradict all the verses I referenced so then we have a contradictory text which opens up a whole new can of worms. But nevertheless, as of right now, the Word of God is very clear. Where is your verse that says anything otherwise?

[Al B. Sure!]

As for the whole prima/sola scriptura thing... the Bible itself is clear on this issue as well...

John 5:24-47

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

32There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

33Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

34But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

35He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

36But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41I receive not honour from men.

42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

43I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

[Kuciwalker]

Of course people can believe what they want about God. They're just mislabeling themselves if they claim to be Catholics without following the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Of course it's silly and pointless. All discussions pertaining to religion are.

I don't think it's terribly useful to tell people they aren't something they self-identify as. Better to accept it and move on.

[Asher]

Very little that we talk about on this site is useful.

[Al B. Sure!]

I don't think it's terribly useful to tell people they aren't something they self-identify as. Better to accept it and move on.

If they disavow the tenets of the Faith while claiming to be of the church they are doing a dis-service to the true believers.

They're heretics. Or munafiq in Islam.

[Jon Miller]

AGAIN, Jon... you keep saying things but it's YOU saying things... what are mere words of man to the Word of God?

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1450-the-bible-word-of-god-or-mere-words-of-men

I was referring to Bible stories. I don't have verses memorized, I dont' tihnk it is necessary. Look at what happened between Paul and Peter (and other early Christans), as described in the Bible.

Look at Christ saying that he was feeding them milk. (if you want I can try to google and find where this was said)

Where is God's Word, Jon, that shows what you are saying? Where is the verse in Scripture that says that those who do not accept Christ as Savior are still Saved?

That's all you have to do, Jon. Just produce that verse. Granted, it would contradict all the verses I referenced so then we have a contradictory text which opens up a whole new can of worms. But nevertheless, as of right now, the Word of God is very clear. Where is your verse that says anything otherwise?

Umm, the verses yuo referenced didn't say any such thing. It isn't very clear. You are making up an interpretation.

The bible isn't a collection of verses. The Bible is a collection of stories/etc, with verses being just an easy way to divide it up for references. Don't make up interpretations of verses out of context.

I strongly disagree with the posting of verses outside of context.

I didn't say taht those who rejected Christ were still saved. Although some Christians would.

JM

[Jon Miller]

As for the whole prima/sola scriptura thing... the Bible itself is clear on this issue as well...

John 5:24-47

Nothing I ahve said disagrees with this scripture at all.

JM