Is anyone here unfortunate enough to be an obsessive racist?

[Al B. Sure!]

There is no One True Bible. That's what you are missing. Jon has explained a different interpretation, for example.

WHAT INTERPRETATION?!

Jon still has not responded with his verses that show that those who do not accept Christ as Savior are Saved. I have referenced those that say that those who do accept Christ will be saved, that only those who accept Christ will be saved, and that those who do not accept Christ will not be saved. Where's his proof in scripture that says otherwise?

[Al B. Sure!]

Ok Jon responded...

KJV is not the best translation... which would you use? Pick one. I'd like to see the verses that reasonably state that those who do not accept Christ are still saved and have eternal life. Produce those and I'll accept your point.

[Asher]

You kicked this all off by making a profoundly ignorant pronouncement about which Catholics may have faith.

I meant Catholic Faith. People who call themselves Catholic which have no faith in the full teachings of the Catholic Church are not Catholics. They may have just as much faith in God, but they've no faith in their CHURCH if they do not take everything the Church says to heart.

Catholics do not need your approval for how they define themselves.

They regularly ignore the pope.

Who the **** are you?

Who the hell are you? I don't need your approval for the arguments I make.

I'm just telling it how I see it. I'm not pretending to be an authority. Time for you to stop playing the role of referee here, it's just distracting.

[Al B. Sure!]

From wiki:

The traditional Christian perspective on salvation is that no one can merit the grace of God by performing rituals, good deeds, asceticism or meditation, because grace is the result of one's initiative. To be forgiven and brought back into a personal relationship with God, it is not enough that the grace of God exists as potential solution. It must be claimed personally by the sinful person. The recognition of one’s sinful state, followed by acceptance of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, is called repentance. Repentance in the New Testament has a wider meaning than simply regretting the mistakes of the past. "When the Holy Spirit descended at Pentecost, repentance meant to be sorry for rejecting Jesus Christ as Savior,[Acts 2:22-37] accompanied by a subsequent change of mentality. The same change in attitude toward Jesus is required today. Christianity teaches that he is not a mere man, a prophet, a guru or something similar, but the savior of the world, the only "name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."[Acts 4:12]

As St. Athanasius put it, God became human so that we might become divine (St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.). This grace in Christ (1 Cor. 1:4) is received as a gift of God that cannot be merited by works done prior to one's conversion to Christianity (Eph. 2:8-9), which is brought about by hearing God's Word (Rom. 10:17) and harkening to it. This involves accepting Jesus Christ as the personal saviour and Lord over one's life.

[SlowwHand]

It's pretty interesting in this day and age to speculate about something that one can't prove absolutely by a Google search.

Faith, you either have it or you don't.

[Al B. Sure!]

It's pretty interesting in this day and age to speculate about something that one can't prove absolutely by a Google search.

Faith, you either have it or you don't.

Sloww, the problem is that these Christians like Jon Miller do not accept the Bible as neither sola nor prima scriptura, and they do not believe that Christ is the only way to Salvation... those are the most basic foundational beliefs of Christianity and they reject them! Either he claims that the Bible says what it does not say or he questions the legitimacy of the Bible. There's no way out of this barring the revelation of some verse that says otherwise (ie- that those who do not accept Christ are still saved)

[Asher]

Christians are notorious for their buffet approach to faith. You pick and choose the parts you like and call it a religion.

[Jon Miller]

Alby:

Christianity actually mostly doesn't hold your position. And has mostly not ever held it. Some of the point you miss is the one that I posted earlier. Just because Christ saves everyone who is saved and they are saved through Him doesn't mean that they even have to know Christ existed.

And actually, for most protestants Moses/etc were saved, and without ever 'knowing' Christ.

JM

[Al B. Sure!]

Christians are notorious for their buffet approach to faith. You pick and choose the parts you like and call it a religion.

It's not Christianity. I contend vehemently and I am positive that there are a horde of Christian evangelicals who would agree with this, that there is no way the a man can have Salvation without acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior. Those who do not accept Christ will not have eternal life. It's very explicit in Scripture and is what those evangelical hordes believe. And the fact is, they're right!

[Asher]

Are you an atheist, Alby?

[Al B. Sure!]

Alby:

Christianity actually mostly doesn't hold your position. And has mostly not ever held it. Some of the point you miss is the one that I posted earlier. Just because Christ saves everyone who is saved and they are saved through Him doesn't mean that they even have to know Christ existed.

And actually, for most protestants Moses/etc were saved, and without ever 'knowing' Christ.

JM

Moses, Elisha, etc. weren't they all 'brought up' to God? And they still served YHWH anyway. Pagans who lived before Christ were considered to be in the circles of Hell according to the Catholic Church.

Jon, it doesn't take much google searching to find a crapload of Christian sites saying that Christ is the only way to Salvation. Are you saying these Christians have the WRONG interpretation? When their intrepretation is the literal reading of Scripture?

[SlowwHand]

Sloww, the problem is that these Christians like Jon Miller do not accept the Bible as neither sola nor prima scriptura, and they do not believe that Christ is the only way to Salvation... those are the most basic foundational beliefs of Christianity and they reject them! Either he claims that the Bible says what it does not say or he questions the legitimacy of the Bible. There's no way out of this barring the revelation of some verse that says otherwise (ie- that those who do not accept Christ are still saved)

Not my problem. I have my own issues to work out. Someone else will make the call.

[Jon Miller]

Christians are notorious for their buffet approach to faith. You pick and choose the parts you like and call it a religion.

Christianity recognizes that God works through humans and interacts with humans. The individual relationship with God and understanding is of importance.

That doesn't mean that people can't think wrong, or have wrong doctrines, or what have you. It doesn't mean that there is no 'this is correct'.

It does mean that that people aren't going to agree about everything, and that many of those that disagree will still be good Christians and are saved by Christ.

JM

[notyoueither]

I meant Catholic Faith. People who call themselves Catholic which have no faith in the full teachings of the Catholic Church are not Catholics. They may have just as much faith in God, but they've no faith in their CHURCH if they do not take everything the Church says to heart.

Really?

The Catholic Church has never changed to meet demands by people who belong to the Catholic Church?

Columbus was not Catholic?

Who the hell are you? I don't need your approval for the arguments I make.

I'm just telling it how I see it. I'm not pretending to be an authority. Time for you to stop playing the role of referee here, it's just distracting.

You are making highly offensive pronouncements about the nature of religion and the faith of religious people.

I'll call you a dog so long as you share fleas with Ben.

[Al B. Sure!]

Christianity recognizes that God works through humans and interacts with humans. The individual relationship with God and understanding is of importance.

That doesn't mean that people can't think wrong, or have wrong doctrines, or what have you. It doesn't mean that there is no 'this is correct'.

It does mean that that people aren't going to agree about everything, and that many of those that disagree will still be good Christians and are saved by Christ.

JM

Where's the verses from Scripture that corroborate this?