Christianity ruins families.

[Ben Kenobi]

apart from the idea that protection is not needed if someone has sex with 1 partner only, why does the RCC disapprove protection?

They see sex as having unitive and procreative properties which should not be divided.

Ie, cleave to your wife, and be fruitful.

For this same reason they disapprove of donor insemination, dividing the procreative from the unitive, as they disapprove of contraception, dividing the unitive from the procreative.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben to rah: Yes, I have an intolerance to certain people, based on what I believe God teaches me.
rah to Ben: None of them are intolerant, the 2nd one is quite dumb though, because it can equally been said that sex with girls is bad for you as well, in that case.

We have different definitions of what 'intolerance' means. To me, intolerance means disrespecting opinions that are different than yours.

To Ming, certain opinions are de facto intolerant.

So for me to say, 'yes, I believe I am intolerant', is wrong, when I reject Ming's premise all together. I do not believe that any opinion, in and of itself is intolerant. An opinion is either right or wrong. Tolerance only deals with how that opinion is expressed.

[giblets]

They see sex as having unitive and procreative properties which should not be divided.

Gee, but they don't have a problem with the rhythm method even though it's designed to remove the procreative properties.

[Robert]

They see sex as having unitive and procreative properties which should not be divided.

Ie, cleave to your wife, and be fruitful.

For this same reason they disapprove of donor insemination, dividing the procreative from the unitive, as they disapprove of contraception, dividing the unitive from the procreative.

what is this 'don't divide unitive and procreative properties' based on? Is the Song of Salomo not only about the joy of sex, ignoring procreation alltogether? And how does this fit with the rhythm method, which actualy does divide sex and procreation?

Why can someone not be fruitful and use contrception as well? It doesn't say: "Be as fruitfull as possible", does it?

And did we not already accomplished this fruitful mission? THere are almost 7 billion people on this world.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Bible clearly says that we should not judge each other. God judges us.

There's a difference between judging actions (ie, homosexuality), and people, (ie, Ming, rah, etc).

Fr'instance, saying that Ming will go to hell for his beliefs is wrong. Saying that I believe doing X is wrong, is ok. You cannot judge a person by condemning an action, even if they practice the action. For I am not convicting them, their own heart convicts them.

[Asher]

homosexuality is not an action. It is an attraction.

Homosexual sex is an action.

Homosexuals are people with an attraction to the same sex. They may or may not act on it. Homosexuals are people.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm a Protestant, and I have never met a Protestant that have not believed that one is saved by faith alone, but who also believes that a faith without fruits, without works, is a dead faith.

What exactly do you think Sola Fide means? Literally translated it is "Only Faith". If someone does not believe that someone is saved by faith alone, they fail at being Protestants.

Good works may accompany faith, it may be a consequence of faith, but it is surely not required for salvation.

As such, Catholics believe that salvation is a lifelong process, because it requires faith and obediance to God in the form of works, while Protestants believe that once one accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior they are "Saved".

[Imran Siddiqui]

the fact that sola scriptura is one of the 3 major solas says enough, especially b/c it's the only one that RCC's 100% disagree with.

Except for, of couse, Sola Fide (which should be ****ing obvious by now!).

[Nikolai]

What exactly do you think Sola Fide means? Literally translated it is "Only Faith". If someone does not believe that someone is saved by faith alone, they fail at being Protestants.

Good works may accompany faith, it may be a consequence of faith, but it is surely not required for salvation.

As such, Catholics believe that salvation is a lifelong process, because it requires faith and obediance to God in the form of works, while Protestants believe that once one accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior they are "Saved".

I believe in faith alone. It's the only thing that saves. Good works adds nothing. But faith that has no consequence for your life, is not a living, saving faith. Don't you see the difference?

[Nikolai]

As Paul states in Romans 10.9ff:

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]

Faith saves, but faith and deeds are strongly connected.

[Ben Kenobi]

what is this 'don't divide unitive and procreative properties' based on?

Well the reference is to Matthew 19:5-6, "for the man will leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife, the two becoming one flesh'.

The idea is that sex makes us bound together, in both the physical sense, and in the spiritual sense. Contraception impairs this bond both spiritually and physically, because in barrier methods the union is not between flesh and flesh, but between latex and flesh.

Cleave is proskollethesetai. It's meant to express total unity between the man and a woman in marriage.

Is the Song of Salomo not only about the joy of sex, ignoring procreation alltogether? And how does this fit with the rhythm method, which actualy does divide sex and procreation?

The Church does not use the rhythm method at least not since the 60s when Ming was young. They use the Billings method.

The Billings method does not, in and of itself divide sex from procreation. All it does is use cervical mucus to determine fertility. This can be used by the husband and wife to make it more or less likely to have a child, by timing ovulation or by refraining from sex during fertile periods.

You aren't dividing the unitive and procreative because you are refraining from sex.

Why can someone not be fruitful and use contrception as well? It doesn't say: "Be as fruitfull as possible", does it?

Fertility is a gift. It's like having a spiritual gift and deliberately choosing not to use it when you should.

And did we not already accomplished this fruitful mission? THere are almost 7 billion people on this world.

The earth is mostly empty. You could fill everyone on a standard size house and lawn quarter acre, one person per house including children, in Texas alone. Leaving the rest of the world entirely empty.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I believe in faith alone. It's the only thing that saves. Good works adds nothing. But faith that has no consequence for your life, is not a living, saving faith. Don't you see the difference?

So... you are arguing for my side... but aren't?

Make up your mind.

[giblets]

Well the reference is to Matthew 19:5-6, "for the man will leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife, the two becoming one flesh'.

The idea is that sex makes us bound together, in both the physical sense, and in the spiritual sense. Contraception impairs this bond both spiritually and physically, because in barrier methods the union is not between flesh and flesh, but between latex and flesh.

Cleave is proskollethesetai. It's meant to express total unity between the man and a woman in marriage.

Now explain how the pill impairs such a bond "between flesh and flesh".

[Ben Kenobi]

As such, Catholics believe that salvation is a lifelong process, because it requires faith and obediance to God in the form of works, while Protestants believe that once one accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior they are "Saved".

This is part of it. Catholics see faith AND tradition, faith And works as necessary because faith without works is dead, and works without faith is useless. Or Christ's admonitions, "by their fruits you will know them."

Sola fide and sola scriptura both neglect parts of what Christ teaches. Catholics believe we are justified, by the grace of God through faith in Christ. Sola gratia.

[Nikolai]

So... you are arguing for my side... but aren't?

Make up your mind.

I'm arguing the same as you and Plomp. This is just me and you comparing views.