Christianity ruins families.

[Ben Kenobi]

Now explain how the pill impairs such a bond "between flesh and flesh".

The pill is an abortifacient. It has three actions. One, suppression of ovulation. Two, thickening of the cervical mucus, and Three, hardening of the endometrium.

[dannubis]

So by avoiding conception all together the pill is an "abortifacient" ... nice but no dice, not even in mainstream Catholic teachings

[giblets]

The pill is an abortifacient. It has three actions. One, suppression of ovulation. Two, thickening of the cervical mucus, and Three, hardening of the endometrium.

Calling that an abortion is kind of silly, but whatever. How about you explain why the catholic church thinks vasectomies are evil.

[Ben Kenobi]

Homosexuals are people with an attraction to the same sex. They may or may not act on it. Homosexuals are people.

You are not what you do, Asher. "Asher" is not merely the sum of his actions or inaction.

[Ben Kenobi]

Calling that an abortion is kind of silly, but whatever. How about you explain why the catholic church thinks vasectomies are evil.

They see fertility as a gift. A vasectomy is no different then hacking off an arm or a leg. It's mutilating the healthy function of the body.

[Asher]

You are not what you do, Asher. "Asher" is not merely the sum of his actions or inaction.

Homosexual is not an action, Ben. What do you not understand.

Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.
Homosexual is a descriptor of a person and his or her characteristics. It is not an action.

[Ben Kenobi]

So by avoiding conception all together the pill is an "abortifacient" ... nice but no dice, not even in mainstream Catholic teachings

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=31385

“Curiously”, Castelvi wrote, this information on the abortifacient effect of the Pill “does not reach the general public,” despite being well-known to researchers.

Advertisement
ROME (LifeSiteNews) – The Vatican’s official newspaper has caused a media storm in the European press with an article asserting the abortifacient and carcinogenic effects of hormonal contraceptives.

The Italian edition of L’Osservatore Romano carries an article this week on a report by the International Federation of Catholic Medical Associations (FIAMC) that was created to commemorate the fortieth anniversary of the encyclical Humanae Vitae, the document by Pope Paul VI that reiterated the Catholic Church’s teaching on artificial birth control.

Pedro José María Simón Castellví, the president of FIAMC, wrote that “the means of contraception violate at least five important rights: the right to life, the right to health, the right to education, all right to information (their spread is at the expense of information on natural resources) and the right to equality between the sexes (the burden of contraception falls mostly on women).”

“Curiously”, Castelvi wrote, this information on the abortifacient effect of the Pill “does not reach the general public,” despite being well-known to researchers.

The hundred-page report, published in German, is an analysis of scientific data on the effects of the Pill and includes three hundred bibliographic citations, mostly from specialized medical journals.

The report “clearly demonstrates” that anovulant, low-dose hormonal birth control pills work not only by preventing ovulation but also by causing the death of an already existing child in the uterine wall. This embryonic person, Castellvi wrote, “even in its early days, is something other than an egg or female germ cell.” From the embryonic stage, the child grows in a coordinated way and this development, unless prevented, “ends with its exit from the womb in nine months, ready to devour a litre of milk.”

The report also notes that the International Agency for Research of Cancer, an agency of the World Health Organization, reported in July 2005 that the oral preparations of combined estrogen-progestogens common in birth control pills are classified in a group of carcinogenic agents.

“The sad thing in all this,” Castelvi wrote, “is that if it is to regulate fertility, these are not the products required. The natural means of regulating fertility, ‘NFP’ or Natural Family Planning, are equally effective and also respect the person.”

Seems mainstream enough for me.

I'd also refer you and everyone with an interest to Humanae Vitae, the papal encyclical, back in 1968.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm arguing the same as you and Plomp. This is just me and you comparing views.

... but Plomp and I are in disagreement about the difference between Protestants and Catholics is merely one of following tradition. So how can you argue the same?

I bet that Ben would disagree with Plomp's characterization as well (ie, there are great issues than just tradition).

In Protestantism, works are most defintely evidence of faith, but aren't needed for justification. This was very important in Luther's time due to the practice of the Catholic Church of selling indulgences for salvation (if you are already saved because you believe in Jesus, why should you have to buy something to reserve your place in heaven?).

[Ben Kenobi]

Asher, determinism is bad, mmkay?

[OzzyKP]

When I was going through confirmation everyone was given some time alone with a priest to ask questions about different things. The one thing I thought to ask about was the church's views on homosexuality. He told me that the overarching rule is that sex outside of creating children is sinful. So gay sex is a sin because it is non-procreative.

So according to this there is absolutely no difference between a straight person who has sex with a condom and a gay person who has gay sex. It is the act that is a sin, there is nothing wrong with the person. Certainly also there is absolutely nothing wrong with a homosexual person who isn't having sex.

But since pretty much every single person out there masturbates or has some kind of sex that is non-procreative there isn't anything special or unusual about homosexuals, even according to the Church. Now of course certain people may seek justification for their own natural anti-gay feelings in Church teachings and exaggerate certain parts of it. But that isn't the fault of Church teaching, at least my understanding of it.

[Asher]

Asher, determinism is bad, mmkay?

Do you enjoy not being able to comprehend what people post, then inventing their opinions?

You don't seem to do anything else. It is pathetic.

[Ben Kenobi]

(if you are already saved because you believe in Jesus, why should you have to buy something to reserve your place in heaven?).

Well, Luther's problem was purgatory. Purgatory, is understood to be the purging of sins prior to sanctification in heaven. Cleansing by fire.

Indulgences are a way to lessen suffering of souls in purgatory prior to their accession in heaven. Everyone who is saved goes through some period of purgatory. So indulgences don't get you on the plane, they just get you a first class seat instead of coach.

I bet that Ben would disagree with Plomp's characterization as well (ie, there are great issues than just tradition).

Yes and no. Not all protestants preach sola fide and sola scriptura. That's mostly Calvinists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians. Anglicans don't. Evangelicals don't preach sola fide, salvation through faith alone. They tend to preach sola gratia, but they do preach sola scriptura.

As an Evangelical, the barriers are lower in some ways but not in others. For me the divide between Episcopalians and Anglicans was far greater than those between Catholics and Evangelicals.

The main divisions:

1. Apostolic succession
2. 3 doctrines of Mary
3. Infant Baptism.
4. Real Presence.

So there are some real differences between the two, but the differences are not nearly as great as they are perceived.

[giblets]

They see fertility as a gift. A vasectomy is no different then hacking off an arm or a leg. It's mutilating the healthy function of the body.

Didn't God go around telling people to circumcise their babies in the past? He doesn't seem to have a problem with mutilation.

[giblets]

Well, Luther's problem was purgatory. Purgatory, is understood to be the purging of sins prior to sanctification in heaven. Cleansing by fire.

Now we know why the Roman Catholic Church has inflicted so much suffering on the world. They're a cult of suffering that thinks it purges sin.

[Ben Kenobi]

Didn't God go around telling people to circumcise their babies in the past? He doesn't seem to have a problem with mutilation.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Galatians 5.