Christianity ruins families.

[giblets]

It'd be like if someone came along and said "ah ha, I have invented the cure for cancer! I have something that could save millions of people! But.. cancer is a very personal thing, so I'm not gonna make a big fuss out of it, and just keep it to myself so as not to trouble anyone."

Religion can't be demonstrated to be true the way a cure for cancer could. And continuing to pester people who have already rejected your religion or your interpretation would just be annoying.

[OzzyKP]

to me religion is a massive contradiction, each one of us must decide for ourselves what creator, if any, we believe in, but its still a personal view or interpretation of existence. How do you turn that into a religion? I can understand religions forming around some "eternal truth" or philosophical code like the Golden Rule, but get far beyond that (notice Jesus' criticism of getting bogged down in ritual and forgetting the big picture) and people start disagreeing and the religion fractures into fragments. And it should, religion is a personal thing. Organized religion is an oxy moron

That is very much an anti-religion view of things. Your opinions only make sense if one believes that faith and God and the afterlife are all fairy tales we primitive folk tell ourselves to help us sleep at night.

It'd be like if someone came along and said "ah ha, I have invented the cure for cancer! I have something that could save millions of people! But.. cancer is a very personal thing, so I'm not gonna make a big fuss out of it, and just keep it to myself so as not to trouble anyone."

That person has come across a great, miraculous, life saving gift, and to keep it to oneself is selfish, anti-human, and destructive. It needs to be shared with everyone. Doing that is a logistical nightmare and requires a great deal of time, energy, organization, dedication, money, training, resources, etc. Just like any other human endeavor.

Also, if someone invented the cure for cancer, he'd want to make sure when people reproduced that cure they got it right. Can't just throw any ingredient into the pot or it'll stop being the cure for cancer, it'll just be snake oil. So time needs to go into making sure the truth of how to create this cure, or attain this cure, are set down and passed around accurately.

Obviously when the life saving gift isn't a thing you can hold in your hand but an idea and a way of life, it becomes more difficult to transmit it accurately. Just like in school you have silly jingles and pneumatic devices to remember things like the planets or the oceans or any other bits of information, rituals get set down as ways to remember and stay connected with the bits of information and truth we need. When those rituals become more important than the essential truth they point to, then yes that is obviously a big problem, but that doesn't mean rituals don't have their place.

[OzzyKP]

Atheist actually. And Asher is somewhat right. I started going to church because my girlfriend is a big believer (though the rare good kind of Christian, who loves everyone and is not really interested in condemning people to Hell, though she does believe it exists). I wanted to support her because it was a big thing in her life. So I went a few times and started to realize that I was feeling the Spirit (which is somewhat hard to explain). Where I'd just stand for respect during praise and worship, I felt more and more the presence of God; and found that the people there were so full of love and joy and I wanted that feeling of love towards people. It was so totally unlike other Christians I knew. They were completely loving and accepting, even though they knew I was an atheist (my gf told me not to be shy about my beliefs). So I gradually decided to be open to whatever was there for me.

Basically the difference between Islam and Christianity for me was that I didn't feel the presence of God while praying as a Muslim. I think it is because of the stress on love that true Christianity has. That notion of loving everyone, even your enemy, is so absolutely powerful and the people that try to live for that ideal have such inner joy and peace, that I'm just scratching the surface on.

That was kind of a ramble about how I accepted Jesus Christ and his gospel. Since then, I've been voraciously reading; and not just the Bible, but theological books, especially those touching on the emerging church, which seeks to explain the Living Word in the context of our postmodern culture.

FWIW, my girlfriend put absolutely NO pressure on me to accept Christianity (though apparently her folks were antsy about her dating an atheist when we started going out - they were exceedingly nice however).

Such an awesome story.

Sounds like an awesome church, and totally how it should be. It frustrates me that too many people only see the hypocrites and haters and not the real Christians out there doing it right. I don't think they are all that rare, they just don't attract nationwide controversy every time they open their mouths.

Imran.

And so sorry to hear about your parents. How long has it been since you've talked to them?

[Berzerker]

to me religion is a massive contradiction, each one of us must decide for ourselves what creator, if any, we believe in, but its still a personal view or interpretation of existence. How do you turn that into a religion? I can understand religions forming around some "eternal truth" or philosophical code like the Golden Rule, but get far beyond that (notice Jesus' criticism of getting bogged down in ritual and forgetting the big picture) and people start disagreeing and the religion fractures into fragments. And it should, religion is a personal thing. Organized religion is an oxy moron

[OzzyKP]

Hmm, I should have assumed the thread no longer had anything to do with its original topic. meh.

Actually I am in fact tired of every thread remotely related to religion or homosexuality getting jacked by Ban's (I mean Ben, ****, Freudian slip) unbelievable levels of self-deception and retardation.

Umm, the OP and the thread title were deliberately insulting and trolling religion. Why is Ben the thread-jacker? If Ben posted a thread titled "Homosexuality ruins families" would it be Asher's fault that it descended into an argument about it? (or is it just always Ben's fault regardless of who starts it?)

That being said, the constant back and forth between Ben and Asher is insanely dull. Get a life you two.

[OzzyKP]

Trust me, this is not about religion; it's about control. It could have been about the font on the invitations. Sounds like she doesn't like your brother.

Kudos to your prospective sister-in-law. Tell her to remember who's wedding it is, perhaps remind her mother of that fact, and to stay strong.

+1 Weddings are nutty.

Speaking of in-laws and gay people at weddings, a few years back at my friend's wedding, his obnoxious step mom went up to his gay friend (who had known her for a while, but she is somehow clueless or in denial) she said: "sooo! when is it going to be your turn?"

He said "when they make it legal."

[Wezil]

Yes I know it is unavoidable. My point is that I want this to change.

It's pointless. Too many posters here find it to be great fun to "debate" the village idiot. It's predictable and boring but they get something out of it.

You are right of course, he would go away if they would stop. I no longer blame Ben, I blame those that encourage him. It is a small but dedicated cadre of posters.

[Imran Siddiqui]

What is the purpose of praying to Mary if all prayers can be received by God?

This does happen to be one of the main beefs that Protestants have with Catholics. So, therefore, while Catholics may follow Ben's argument here (to some degree), Protestants would disagree.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Wouldn't this lend credence to Islam being a better religion than Christianity? Not as good for placing a Pascal's Wager but more in keeping with a more reasonable and tolerant conception of God?

If you are merely speaking of cynical reasons... however, people don't believe for cynical reasons (ie, people don't decide to believe simply because Pascal's Wager). People believe because they feel the presense of God. They believe because they feel His Spirit around them and working through people.

So the question is not the proper one, IMO.

[Ben Kenobi]

Mary must be getting tired of praying by now. Millions of Catholics are asking her to pray every day.

Imagine how Christ feels. I think she's pretty happy in heaven, to be honest.

[Ben Kenobi]

I know... like Hinduism... the Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva are part of the great Brahman... and there are Avatars, incarnations if you will, of God sent to earth to teach man.

Not really. Brahma is more like Adam, the progenitor of Mankind.

Vishnu created Brahma. Vishnu created Shiva. The relationship between Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma is understood very differently from the relationship of YHWH, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

You have to remember that all three are uncreated. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy spirit uncreated. The Father eternal, the Son eternal and the Holy spirit eternal.

They are also of one substance, and indivisible. The understanding of the Christian trinity is very different from Hinduism.

[Al B. Sure!]

Yes I know it is unavoidable. My point is that I want this to change.

It's the only topics he cares about. There's a million other things to talk about that won't attract him.

[Hauldren Collider]

Honestly, I'm pretty sure Asher knew this was coming eventually... it's unavoidable now. Ben has a hard-on for religion (the more alter boys the better!)... Plus, Gays and bike riders... Ben curses their name!

Yes I know it is unavoidable. My point is that I want this to change.

[giblets]

I regret making my comment about how Ben should join Islam for the pedophilia. It seems to have aroused him.

[Al B. Sure!]

Actually I am in fact tired of every thread remotely related to religion or homosexuality getting jacked by Ban's (I mean Ben, ****, Freudian slip) unbelievable levels of self-deception and retardation.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure Asher knew this was coming eventually... it's unavoidable now. Ben has a hard-on for religion (the more alter boys the better!)... Plus, Gays and bike riders... Ben curses their name!