Ships to Gaza incident

[MOBIUS]

Personally, I would have just declared them hostile the second they became violent and then sank the ship with all aboard. It would have been perfectly legal. The survivors could make a statement just before their hanging. The best that can be said about this ship is they were attempting to pave the way for Muslim terrorist arms smugglers. They should all be hanged. The sooner the better.

****ing hell mate, now that's what I call a 48" Mental Meltdown with Cheese Toppings!

Get a grip of what you're actually saying because you're sounding way worse than the terrorists you hate...

[Sirotnikov]

So far i heard Israel citing about "contraband concrete". What's next? Contraband water? Contraband air?

do better homework.
Israel is in an armed conflict with Hamas and has imposed a naval blockade.
The ships intended to run the blockade, and have expressed this on the media and to Israeli authorities. Israel had full legal right to capture the ships.

It's obvious without any propaganda.

Speaking about propoganda, how do you feel about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk

(shot on the Marmaris a day before the IDF takeover)

Democratically elected Hamas.
I'm not against "semites", i'm against anti-democratic "evil monsters" (c)

Here you again should go do your homework.
The Gaza Hamas government was not democratically elected.

short run down for you:
In Jan 2006 Hamas won by a slight edge in parliamentary elections.
A unity Fatah-Hamas government was set up, with a Hamas PM functioning under president Abbas.
For a year there were prolonged disagreements about conditions regarding negotiations with Israel.
In 2007, in a bloody coup Hamas militias overthrew the local and national government in Gaza, and installed an unelected Hamas only government.
All state services were replaced with Hamas militias. Fatah supporters were stoned, hanged, shot dead and thrown to their deaths from rooftops.
That government is not recognized by President Abbas, and in practice does not recognize him.

So there you go.
A government run by a militia which is not recognized by anyone except possibly Iran.

Do you like other people making your homework for you?

[Ellestar]

Yes, surely that deserves the death of scores of people.

By the way, how many weapons, tanks, rockets, etc did they find on these boats?

About equal to a number of WMDs in Iran?

I don't care if Israel does peaceful inspections. You usually don't do peaceful inspections by air-dropping commandos with nightvision at night on a boat.

You don't understand, it's an "evil monster" (c) way.

Ellestar, the deal was struck a few days later but had not been struck at the time the ships were pressing the naval blockade. The deal was the Soviets take out missiles in Cuba and the US takes out missiles from Turkey.

My point is that if russians decided to make a fair deal instead of sinking US carrier and starting WW3, that doesn't make russians chickens.

[MOBIUS]

trying to get Israel to do something rash.

Have you been living in a cave all your life or something? Israel does something 'rash' on an all too regular basis - committing war crimes and breaking international law on a daily basis is the country's modus operandi.

Go back to your closet, little one...

[Sirotnikov]

Mobi, why weren't you on the flotilla? I thought you cared

I would have come down to buy you beer for your short stay.

[Ellestar]

do better homework.
Israel is in an armed conflict with Hamas and has imposed a naval blockade.
The ships intended to run the blockade, and have expressed this on the media and to Israeli authorities. Israel had full legal right to capture the ships.
Here you again should go do your homework.

I don't know international laws good enough to decide if it was legal or not, but so far public opinion is against Israel.
Personally,

The Gaza Hamas government was not democratically elected.
short run down for you:
In Jan 2006 Hamas won by a slight edge in parliamentary elections.
A unity Fatah-Hamas government was set up, with a Hamas PM functioning under president Abbas.
For a year there were prolonged disagreements about conditions regarding negotiations with Israel.
In 2007, in a bloody coup Hamas militias overthrew the local and national government in Gaza, and installed an unelected Hamas only government.
All state services were replaced with Hamas militias. Fatah supporters were stoned, hanged, shot dead and thrown to their deaths from rooftops.
That government is not recognized by President Abbas, and in practice does not recognize him.

So there you go.
A government run by a militia which is not recognized by anyone except possibly Iran.

Do you like other people making your homework for you?

Well, things between Hamas and Fatah are their own internal business. AFAIK Hamas was considered a terrorist organization before and after their election. So, at some point they were democratically elected, and Israel was against them anyway.

[MOBIUS]

Mobi, why weren't you on the flotilla? I thought you cared

No thanks, I remember my history lessons and what happened to the USS Liberty

Floating outside of Israeli territorial waters is clearly an occupational hazard I'd rather not expose myself to.

And cement? That's the most 'dangerous' material on board these ships!!?

[Sirotnikov]

I don't know international laws good enough to decide if it was legal or not, but so far public opinion is against Israel.
Personally,

So what was the joke about contraband referring to?

Public opinion is manipulated with little regard to actual events or laws.

Well, things between Hamas and Fatah are their own internal business. AFAIK Hamas was considered a terrorist organization before and after their election. So, at some point they were democratically elected, and Israel was against them anyway.

Nice evasion.

Your original point was that it is unreasonable to force Hamas to step down from power, because they were 'democratically elected' and thus a legitimate government.

I assume you concede you were wrong?

Floating outside of Israeli territorial waters is clearly an occupational hazard I'd rather not expose myself to.

You just don't care enough.

And cement? That's the most 'dangerous' material on board these ships!!?

Quite clear today that the most dangerous material on board these ships were the insane lunatics who attempted to lynch boarding commandos.

Cement is a material on the import of which Israel places restrictions. It is not allowed freely to prevent its use in weapon caches and bunkers. It is allowed only for projects run by international humanitarian bodies, which the Hamas govt. doesn't control.

The rest of the material underwent short inspection, and as promised, delivery of all the items to Gaza already started.

[Dinner]

It's not just the cement. The fact is all cargo must be searched to insure no items of military value are being smuggled into Gaza and this ship deliberately tried to evade such a search. They were clearly in the wrong from start to finish.

[Al B. Sure!]

Oerdin:

But do you investigate the ship in port or in territorial waters with inspectors or do you heli-drop commandos to do it? What would the US Coast Guard do?


And wow, Mobius, I had no idea about the USS Liberty. 34 American servicemen killed by Israel.

Dean Rusk, U.S. Secretary of State at the time of the incident, wrote:
I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous

In 2002, Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, U.S. Navy, senior counsel for the Court of Inquiry, claimed that the Court of Inquiry's findings were intended to cover up what was a deliberate attack by Israel on a ship it knew to be American. In 2004, in response to the publication of Jay Cristol’s book The Liberty Incident, which Boston claimed was an "insidious attempt to whitewash the facts" he prepared and signed an affidavit[46] in which he claimed that Admiral Kidd had told him that the government ordered Kidd to falsely report that the attack was a mistake, and that he and Kidd both believed the attack was deliberate. On the issue Boston wrote, in part:
The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack, which killed 34 American sailors and injured 172 others, was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. Each evening, after hearing testimony all day, we often spoke our private thoughts concerning what we had seen and heard. I recall Admiral Kidd repeatedly referring to the Israeli forces responsible for the attack as 'murderous bastards.' It was our shared belief, based on the documentary evidence and testimony we received first hand, that the Israeli attack was planned and deliberate, and could not possibly have been an accident.

Wow. Why is America so damn scared of Israel? We've been scared of them since the 1960's apparently.

David Floyd was talking about S. Korea being pussies for letting N. Korea kill their sailors... I wonder if he knows about this?

[MOBIUS]

So basically by refusing to allow building materials into Gaza to repair the thousands of civilian houses it destroyed 18 months ago, Israel is collectively punishing the entire civilian population and pushing them into the arms of Hamas.

The more Israel struggles against its circumstances, the more it risks its own destruction in the future...

BTW, do you know how difficult it can be to get avocados in the UK that aren't grown in Israel?

[MOBIUS]

Israel's so-called pro Hamas terrorists: Gaza Freedom flotilla carried world-renowned names and veteran activists Author Henning Mankell and Nobel peace laureate Mairead Corrigan-Maguire among more than 600 passengers...

I was at the Hay Festival on Saturday where Henning Mankell was due to talk via a live link. This was a peaceful mission designed to highlight Israel's barbaric blockade of Gaza - not some terrorist sponsored mission of war as the Israelis and nutters like Oerdin would have us believe...

[Wezil]

You mean like the lawful orders not to land without customs inspection? That sort of ignoring lawful order?

When did they land? Geez there are a lot of facts missing.

Quit making ****up.

[Wezil]

Except it wasn't in "international waters", you dullard. It was in internationally recognized Israeli waters!

Are we reading about the same incident?

If you want to resort to insults Oerdin that's fine ,but you have a very short bench when it comes to that game.

Let me know.

[Wezil]

Israel's relations with Turkey mean **** all.

The first predominantly muslim nation to recognise the nation of Israel.

Write 'em off. They're losers.

The opinions of the masses in Europe and the US may mean something.

I gaurantee that support will suffer as well.