Ships to Gaza incident

[Asher]

Presumably, less than would have been on them if Israel hadn't promised to check them.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about this specific shipment, which Israel decided to invade via helicopter with commandos in the dead of night. How many tanks did it have?

I don't care if Israel does peaceful inspections. You usually don't do peaceful inspections by air-dropping commandos with nightvision at night on a boat.

[Hauldren Collider]

I'm not saying 17 year olds can't have opinions. I'm saying that things are a lot more black and white to 17 year olds than they are to people with more experience and wisdom.

I don't think he appreciates human life as much as he should.

Not precisely. Force protection for Israeli soldiers is of higher priority to me than a bunch of anti-Semitic activists.

[Hauldren Collider]

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about this specific shipment, which Israel decided to invade via helicopter with commandos in the dead of night. How many tanks did it have?

I don't care if Israel does peaceful inspections. You usually don't do peaceful inspections by air-dropping commandos with nightvision at night on a boat.

Jesus christ asher, they told them to divert to Ashdod to be inspected and the ship refused, THEN they boarded. Read up.

[SlowwHand]

I'm not saying 17 year olds can't have opinions. I'm saying that things are a lot more black and white to 17 year olds than they are to people with more experience and wisdom.

I don't think he appreciates human life as much as he should.

This all may be true. As an older person, I would like to delay, delay and then crush. That way, a chance has been given adequately. "Hey. I told you, and told you again. Don't cry at me now."

[Al B. Sure!]

Slowww:

From http://www.vhfcn.org/stats.htm

Average age of 58,148 killed in Vietnam was 23.11 years

[Asher]

Jesus christ asher, they told them to divert to Ashdod to be inspected and the ship refused, THEN they boarded. Read up.

They can board in daylight so people aren't spooked.

It's basic ****ing human nature. Any idiot, except for apparently the idiots in the Israeli military, could've told you what would happen if men with guns start dropping from the sky on a boat in the middle of the night. Of course there was hostility.

[SlowwHand]

Slowww:

From http://www.vhfcn.org/stats.htm

I knew it was something like that. I was at the evacuation of Saigon and was 19.

[Asher]

Not precisely. Force protection for Israeli soldiers is of higher priority to me than a bunch of anti-Semitic activists.

I've got a feeling your jewish heritage and family upbringing is impacting your opinion here.

I'm not sure Israel should even be where it is. I'm not sure they should be doing what they're doing to Gaza. The situation is far more complicated than I think you understand.

I don't give Israel carte blanche to defend itself by preemptively killing people in international waters. I draw lines.

[Asher]

FWIW, it looks like they outsmarted Israel here.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/israeli-action-condemned-as-thousands-protest-flotilla-deaths/article1587279/

Or Israel shot itself in the foot.

Either way, looks like Israel lost here. Bigtime.

[Al B. Sure!]

Slowww:

The stats for OIF:

Number of deaths by age 3/21/03-4/30/06:

17-19 163
20-24 1109
25-29 518
30-34 281
35-39 181
40-44 92
45-49 38
50+ 15

So the 25+ death toll is comparable to the 20-24 group. Still relatively young but not quite Vietnam young. Makes sense considering longer length of training, average age of enlistment is higher, etc. since then. Not too many under 20 casualties though.

[Sirotnikov]

I don't care if Israel does peaceful inspections. You usually don't do peaceful inspections by air-dropping commandos with nightvision at night on a boat.

Well actually that's a good point.
I imagine the IDF felt it would be more media savvy to do it at dawn, and have most people sleepy. A day time confrontation could have attracted attention, which the IDF tried to avoid.

Imagine our disappointment with the result.

[Sirotnikov]

FWIW, it looks like they outsmarted Israel here.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/israeli-action-condemned-as-thousands-protest-flotilla-deaths/article1587279/

Or Israel shot itself in the foot.

Either way, looks like Israel lost here. Bigtime.

We've been outsmarted and shot ourselves in the foot at the same time.

We should have stopped the flotilla by other means, avoiding the need to raid a huge 600 people boat.

Even if we did, we should have left the big boat to the end, collect better intelligence and have means to rescue the soldiers in case of confrontation.

The problem is that even Israel was fooled and no one expected any confrontation. Once the soldiers slid down the rope they became captives of the crazed mob, and the IDF had little choice but use force.

[Al B. Sure!]

Not precisely. Force protection for Israeli soldiers is of higher priority to me than a bunch of anti-Semitic activists.

Force protection is a higher priority...

Hey I know Israel doesn't have these same values as the United States does but... wait a second, you are an American...

Maybe I got hit in the head a little too hard or I've drunk too much of the US patriotic kool-aid, but soldiers exist to protect and serve civilian citizens... and I daresay not just the citizens with USA on their passports, but the citizens of the world.









Force protection, *******? There's right and there's wrong. I understand that those IDF soldiers were put into a very tough position and they did what they had to do given the circumstances, but that does not mean that shooting on a mob is some glorious act of heroism.

[Sirotnikov]

do you mind not disrupting the thread?

the point you're making could be made without huge ass pictures that distort the pageflow.

not to mention its a poor point.
I could point to to dozens of cases of US army shooting a mob, and dozens of cases of IDF doing humanitarian work around the world.

[Al B. Sure!]

You miss my point, Siro. My point is that HC is a douche.



Nothing to do with Israel (although I guess my snide comment about Israel having different values made you interpret it as such). Just HC valuing force protection over the lives of several hundred civilians like it's some eternal 'duh'.

And I took off the big picture if it makes you happy.