Ships to Gaza incident

[Robert]

"When a regular, well-armed, well-trained army goes to war against a 'freedom flotilla' of civilian vessels laden with civilians, food and medication, the outcome is foretold – and it doesn't matter whether the confrontation achieved its goal and prevented the flotilla from reaching Gaza."

It's a normal procedure to enter a ship that (is about to) enters your territory while making no secret of it's illegal goal. The dutch navy does the same.
The purpose of the army is not to fight on the ship, but just to take it over and sail it to the right harbour.

This is what happens with the Somalian pirates every day.

And of course, it's an army because it needs to be able to fight when needed. this time it was needed. Did you see the video?
But just entering a ship with marines is not an act of violence.

[Ellestar]

So they're choosing arrest over deportation, and you're criticizing Israel for taking the bait? So just to be clear then, you agree in this case that the "peace activists" are basically full of ****?

They're doing it so to protect the others on the ships. Israel is more limited in their actions against all other arrested crew members of the ships if it includes international peace activists. Maybe you don't know the meaning of words like "solidarity" or "uniting against opression" but peace activists certainly do. It's a common tactics against evil regimes.

[Dinner]

Seriously Oerdin, you have a screw loose...

Meh, Churchill routinely gets named as the UK's greatest leader yet guess who came up with this concentration camp system during the Boer War? It was amazingly effective. It virtually ends unconventional warfare over night. The US was literally cleaning up the Viet Cong until we stopped Sweep & Clear. I'm all for it because it is proven effective.

[Robert]

It's a common tactics against evil regimes.

If it's a common tactic against evil regimes, why do then not use it against Iran, Hamas, North Korea, etc?
Maybe because it's only a common use against democratic regimes that try to fight within the rules, against enemies that cross all rules. (and yes, they often fail while trying to)

[MOBIUS]

Who are these known terrorists? What genocidal songs? Extreme violence? Excuse me but how many Israelis were killed - whose violence was more extreme?

The ships goals were to publicise the continuing inhumane blockade of Gaza, and to deliver humanitarian supplies including cement to help rebuild the thousands of civilian houses destroyed by the Israelis that still are in ruins after 18 months - as a Christian surely you believe in charity for the suffering...!? Oh wait, they're Muslims...

Why couldn't the Israelis have waited until the ships reached their waters and searched the ships during daylight?

[MOBIUS]

"When a regular, well-armed, well-trained army goes to war against a 'freedom flotilla' of civilian vessels laden with civilians, food and medication, the outcome is foretold – and it doesn't matter whether the confrontation achieved its goal and prevented the flotilla from reaching Gaza."

It's a normal procedure to enter a ship that (is about to) enters your territory while making no secret of it's illegal goal. The dutch navy does the same.
The purpose of the army is not to fight on the ship, but just to take it over and sail it to the right harbour.

This is what happens with the Somalian pirates every day.

And of course, it's an army because it needs to be able to fight when needed. this time it was needed. Did you see the video?
But just entering a ship with marines is not an act of violence.

For the 100th time, they were in international waters!!!

Israel could have waited until they had international law on their side and made the inspections during the day - the fact that they couldn't give two ****s about international law and get away with acting like terrorists on a regularly basis is what got them into trouble...

It's almost like the Israelis wanted to kill some people.

[MOBIUS]

Meh, Churchill routinely gets named as the UK's greatest leader yet guess who came up with this concentration camp system during the Boer War? It was amazingly effective. It virtually ends unconventional warfare over night. The US was literally cleaning up the Viet Cong until we stopped Sweep & Clear. I'm all for it because it is proven effective.

Churchill was a ruthless c*nt. Gaza is virtually a concentration camp already - The Israelis are very good at sweeping and clearing - they've been doing it since 1948!

IMHO, the only thing stopping them from finishing the job is that outright genocide of the Palestinians is about the only thing that would end their 'special relationship' with the US...

[Robert]

Who are these known terrorists? What genocidal songs? Extreme violence? Excuse me but how many Israelis were killed - whose violence was more extreme?

You don't know?
They were singing about a jewish city population that was completely murdered by Muhammed, singing that it would happen again. They were singing it when they left the port. Videos are all over the internet.

There are all kinds of terroristic groups behind thie "free gaza" movement. Not in the last place Hamas itself.

Did you see the video where the Israeli enter the ship.
Immediately the entire mob starts to slay them with large tools, continueing when they fall to the ground.
Extreme violence is not about the quanitity but about the quality of the violence. Slaying marines (that did not yet use violence) with large tools, while they're laying on the ground, is extreme violence.
Responding to violence with force is not extreme violence, it's an appropriate response.

as a Christian surely you believe in charity for the suffering...!? Oh wait, they're Muslims...

I do believe in that, and as a matter of fact, the most charity to muslims comes from christians.
But charity has nothing to do with violent provocation.
If they would have sailed to Ashdod and delivered the goods the normal way, then I woudl have had sympathy. This had nothing to do with helping the people of Gaza.

Why not use the Egyptian road? Egypt also borders with Gaza.
The problem is not that there's not enough humanitary aid going to Gaza. The problem is that Hamas blocks it and abuses it.

Why couldn't the Israelis have waited until the ships reached their waters and searched the ships during daylight?

Why would they?
They did not have to. International law says that you're allowed to search a ship that heads towards your territory if it has the clear intention to break your blockade.

You ask the wrong question.
why did the 'activists' not allow the Israelians to enter their ships and search it, as they are allowed by international law? Why did they decide to attempt to lynch them? That's the real question.

[Robert]

For the 100th time, they were in international waters!!!

Israel could have waited until they had international law on their side and made the inspections during the day - the fact that they couldn't give two ****s about international law and get away with acting like terrorists on a regularly basis is what got them into trouble...

It's almost like the Israelis wanted to kill some people.

International laws allows nations to enter and search ships that clearly head towards their international waters with the clear goal to breach the blockade.

But anyway, the violence used by the 'activists' is way more illegal then the israelians entering the ships.

It's almost like the Israelis wanted to kill some people.

Did you see the video?

Gaza is virtually a concentration camp already - The Israelis are very good at sweeping and clearing - they've been doing it since 1948!

Thanks to Hamas.
Even Egypt had it's borders closed with Gaza.

[Robert]

Here you go:

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

[Ellestar]

I'm all for restoring Vietnam era "sweep and clear" rules. Order all civilians out of an area, set up refugee camps and make sure everyone is thoroughly searched before entering the camps (as in perp walk them naked), and then fence there asses in telling them anyone who tries to leave will be shot on sight and for good measure put a nice big mine field around the whole camp. Then declare the other 99.99% of the country a military exclusion zone where anyone found will be assumed hostile and shot on sight. Any idiot who refused to go to the designated civilian concentration camp will simply be shot on sight thus solving the problem. It was extremely effective at solving these sorts of problems and Hamas would cease to exist over night if this was done. It worked in Vietnam until whiny liberals made us stop, it worked for the French in Algeria until they stopped using the tactic, it worked for the Italians in Libya, and it worked for the British in South Africa. It's 100% effective at clearing hostiles from an area, it makes sure everyone knows who the boss is, and if the ****heads riot they're conveniently all located in the same place for easy liquidation. Guess who wins?

I know, i know! Facists win. Hitler will be proud of you, young padawan!

On a second thought, facists weren't as bad

[Kitschum]

Here you go:

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

Damn. How predictable.

[Robert]

And yet no answer.

[Kitschum]

See post 325. Or read article 102 of that same document.

[Ellestar]

As for cement only being allowed through official channals that is because Hamas hijacks most shipments and uses it to build bunkers or fighting positions. Israel does allow cement and bricks in to Gaza but only to real humanitarian organizations (like the UN) who will not give them to Hamas to build military fighting installations. Cry me a ****ing river. The legality of the blockade is not even remotely questionable as Israel has even been recognized by the UN as the legal controlling power and Hamas's illegal regime has been universally internationally recognized as an illegal government which seized power via a coupe d'estate.

Blah blah blah. I don't care. People all over the world don't care. Cement is a humanitarian shipment to a disaster zone (disaster caused by Israel). Cry ME a river.

Hey, Elle. I've decided I'm going to give "humanitarian supplies" to Caucasian muslims and I figure plastic explosives and anti-tank mines will be part of the shipment. What do you think of that? What's that you say? You want the Russian government to be able to search the shipment for contraband before it enters the country? Gee, I guess you agree with Israel after all.

That's what USA already did when it supplied Taliban with weapons to use against USSR (to name one case among many).

Anyway, noone oficially sends weapons in a ships that will most likely will be inspected anyway. They send things like concrete. And then people all over the world ask, why the hell cocrete is a contraband and is it worth it to kill people to prevent "contraband" of concrete?

If it's a common tactic against evil regimes, why do then not use it against Iran, Hamas, North Korea, etc?
Maybe because it's only a common use against democratic regimes that try to fight within the rules, against enemies that cross all rules. (and yes, they often fail while trying to)

It's a common tactics against evil regimes who still do care about the rules somewhat and prefer to look like a good regimes. So, Israel is a perfect target for such tactics.

If a country or regime has no foreign support at all no matter what, it doesn't need to play within the rules. Russia was the only big country that supported Hamas and had a meeting with them in Kremlin because of that reason. And Russia warned that it's a bad idea to ostracize a legal democratically elected government like Hamas. Of course, everyone ignored the warning and you got exactly what Russia warned about - Hamas didn't feel the need to play within the rules and so they used force to get even more power.