Ships to Gaza incident

[Wezil]

It's akin to the invasion of Iraq where there was lots of opinion supporting the invasion and claiming it was legal - almost all American opinion.

[MOBIUS]

When you become what you are fighting against you have lost.

Israeli's celebrating the deaths.

Absolutely. That seems to be Israel's unwritten modus operandi: When you have a nation that frequently kills up to a hundred times more civilians than the terrorists - you have to wonder who the real terrorists are?

Such a terrible lesson for a nation built by the survivors of the holocaust to have learned...

[Wezil]

I will say again - I am a supporter of Israel. I think they live in a very bad neighbourhood and face security concerns most of us are blessed not to have to face.

That said, Israel does not have the right to do whatever they feel like doing, wherever they want. If they want to operate outside international law they should be treated as such.

[MOBIUS]

It's akin to the invasion of Iraq where there was lots of opinion supporting the invasion and claiming it was legal - almost all American opinion.

In fact, wasn't Oerdin one of the biggest supporters of the war in Iraq - until he went over there...!?

He must feel like such a colossal fool now...

Hey, Oerdin, why don't you see for yourself the concentration camp conditions Israel has placed the people of Gaza under and see who the real victims are?

[Robert]

The general consensus from the experts was it was not legal, Plomp. Only ones actually saying it was legal are Israelis or people who defend Israelis "on principle".

Both in principle and according to the text I quoted from international law, it was legal.
Even the professor you quote bases his weak "Not necessarily" on what he knows about the ship. I wonder if he, when he made that comment, was already aware of the extreme violent nature of the people on the ship.

500 extremists* who wanted to die as martyrs were about to enter Gaza.
I'd say that's a very immenent treath.
And that's where the problems start, I make an interpretation, you do, some experts do. But in the end it's war and it has to do with politics.

Israel bases it's searching of the ship on international law.
In the end it's a political decision. Interpretations are also always dependant on political positions. A pro-palestinian person will always interpretate it against Israel, and a pro-Israelian will use it in favour of Israel.

The bottom line is, why are people like you, sane, rational, democratic people, supporting people like this:

http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/06/01/confession-flotilla-nazis-planned-to-attack-israel-die-as-martyrs/

*there were also some idealists

[Robert]

It's as if people like Plompie and Oerdin have had a chip inserted into the their brains and are remote controlled by Israeli operators...

Only people who clami to own superior morality dare to doubt the honorable reasons for others to have a different position.
It's not a good sight if you can't handle it that people have a different opinion then you.

Hey, Oerdin, why don't you see for yourself the concentration camp conditions Israel has placed the people of Gaza under and see who the real victims are?

The people of Gaza are the final victims, along with the civilians who are affected on the Israelian side.
The main question is, who's primary responsible for this. Since the people on the west bank are living under much better conditions, which are still improving every day, I doubt that the terrible position of the people in Gaza is to blame on the Israelians.

Mobius: Such a terrible lesson for a nation built by the survivors of the holocaust to have learned...

This is the lesson Israel has learned from the holocaust.
To prevent it from happening again, they will this time defend themselves properly.

Absolutely. That seems to be Israel's unwritten modus operandi: When you have a nation that frequently kills up to a hundred times more civilians than the terrorists - you have to wonder who the real terrorists are?

The ones who use these civilians as a shield to cover their terroristic operations?

[Wezil]

Meh. We had this debate yesterday Plomp.

You should come by more often.

[Asher]

Both in principle and according to the text I quoted from international law, it was legal.
Even the professor you quote bases his weak "Not necessarily" on what he knows about the ship. I wonder if he, when he made that comment, was already aware of the extreme violent nature of the people on the ship.

He made the comment yesterday, so yes. He's also the foremost expert on international law in the country (being the Research Chair).

I'd say he knows far more about this than you do.

Even in this thread, it's been discussed why the treaty you quoted doesn't apply.

Just so you know, the San Remo manual is not actually a piece of international law. In fact, it's obscure enough that it's not even on wikipedia...it seems to have been dug up to retroactively support this situation even though it is not a piece of genuine international law. Even then, the blockade Israel is running is not legal under what is defined by San Remo, which means the boarding is still not legal.

500 extremists* who wanted to die as martyrs were about to enter Gaza.

Now you are just lying.

At least 3 of the people on the boat were middle aged (almost elderly) white, Canadian peace activists. I have a feeling you've been horribly misinformed.

[Wezil]

If you want to defend killing on the high seas it's important to make the other guys seem worse than you.

[Asher]

BTW, on Oerdin's point that this was all legal because the ship was within the 200nm boundary of Israel's EEZ:

1. The convention does not extent local law to the high seas, it only gives the state jurisdiction over the exploitation of the maritime zone defined by the EEZ.
2. Israel does not have an internationally declared EEZ. An EEZ can't be unilaterally declared but has to be filed with the proper UN authorities. Most coastal states do not have a declared EEZ.
3. States are allowed to inspect ships within their declared EEZ (see 2.) only if ships are under suspicion of illegally exploiting the EEZ (see 1.).

[BeBMan]

I just found out about Ellestar's sig which is great.

[Robert]

Asher: Now you are just lying.

At least 3 of the people on the boat were middle aged (almost elderly) white, Canadian peace activists. I have a feeling you've been horribly misinformed.

there was an * behind the 500.
A footnote. Which said: "*there were also some idealists " (+-100?)
but of course it was an unedicated guess.

Regarding what you say about international law. I'm not an expert so I can only accept what the experts say indeed.
My point though is that Israel made a political decision on what they in the end considered to be international law. They found legal ground for a political supported action.

the bottom line is that these conflicts cannot be solved by international law (if not in the first place because both parties must be willing to live up to it).
My question to you remains, why are you supporting these people? (not the idealists, the turkish wannabe martyrs)
Why are you supporting Hamas?

Support Abbas and the government on the west bank. (which was expelled by Hamas).

[Robert]

Meh. We had this debate yesterday Plomp.

You should come by more often.

I'm sorry.
I did see it yesterday, but today I jumped into it after seeing all those videos.

[Wezil]

My question to you remains, why are you supporting these people? (not the idealists, the turkish wannabe martyrs)
Why are you supporting Hamas?

"Why do you hate America?"

FFS Plomp, I can support Israel in general but still say they were wrong in this instance. It doesn't make me a ****ing Hamas supporter.

Shame on you.

[Asher]

My question to you remains, why are you supporting these people? (not the idealists, the turkish wannabe martyrs)
Why are you supporting Hamas?

Are you really playing this game?

I support neither Hamas nor Israel. As I said, both organizations/countries could cease to exist and I wouldn't care.

I do care about legitimate governments overreaching their powers into international areas, no matter who they are. Whether it's the US deciding to invade Iraq on falsified information or Israel attacking a ship in international waters -- international law must be respected. This **** is how wars start.