Apologies to BK. You were right about gay marriages.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It is true that we are suppose to talk to our fellow Christians

In a non-judgmental manner, because when you start getting judgmental, they retreat or get defensive. We are supposed to encourage our fellow Christians in their walk with the Lord. We aren't supposed to go off on them about something they are doing that may not actually be sin (there are varying ideas about what may or may not be sinful and most times it comes down to what God personally reveals in your life). We need to encourage them to get closer to the Lord and to ask Him about what they are doing in their lives and as they get closer, they may recieve clarity.

If they come to you for help, that is a different matter. But to go off on things you believe are sinful is not treating the person with love and kindness. It is that which changes people and makes them clamor for the Holy Spirit transforming their lives, if they need it, not judgmentalism.

I know people who believe homosexuality (or, rather, acting on homosexual temptation) is a sin, but they aren't judgmental towards gay people, but rather are very loving and kind towards them.

[Nikolai]

As pointed out... past Popes believed the world was flat... then I guess God finally corrected them on that matter. Plus, the POPE only speaks for the catholic church, NOT ALL CHRISTIANS.

Which popes would that be? Anyone with a minimum of education knew that the world was round from before Christ was even born. There is a myth about the church believing so in the middle ages, but that's a myth that was created in the 1800s. You should know better than this Ming...

[Ming]

Which popes would that be? Anyone with a minimum of education knew that the world was round from before Christ was even born. There is a myth about the church believing so in the middle ages, but that's a myth that was created in the 1800s. You should know better than this Ming...

Fine... but how about the Popes that believed the Earth was the center of the Universe... Now they were a really smart bunch.

And as far as believing in myths...

[giblets]

The Bible hasn't changed, so the earth still cannot be moved. Scripture is very clear about that so anyone who thinks otherwise is not a Christian.

[Ben Kenobi]

Fine... but how about the Popes that believed the Earth was the center of the Universe... Now they were a really smart bunch.

So did Tycho, for that matter.

It wasn't proven that the heliocentric universe existed until Frederich Bessel's observations, but then I'm sure you already knew this.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Pope also condemned Galileo. Now, apparently, his theory is OK for the church, so don't wait for me to have blind faith what he says.

This is a terrible argument.

One, Galileo was condemned for his mechanistic philosophy, not for his observations of the universe.

Two, matters of faith an morals are issues for the popes, not scientific discoveries.

Right. We should also go back to believing that waging wars on the infidels and a Geocentric universe are the way to go, otherwise you're not following the church.

It took nearly 500 years to prove that the geocentric universe theory was in fact false, even after Copernicus developed heliocentrism. The popes in the meantime were with some splendid scientists, including Tycho, who developed and alternative system (which, btw, was the theory that the pope and the Catholic church stood behind). The only error that Tycho made is that the universe is a great deal larger than he suspected and his instrumentation was insufficient to accurately measure parallax.

It's only been 150 years that we have known beyond a doubt that the heliocentric universe is true. That's not very long in the grand scheme of things.

So you say that 1500 year old texts, of which we don't have the original versions,

You are aware that the textual evidence of scripture is extremely strong? Yes, we don't have the originals. The oldest complete codexes are Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, both dating to the early 4th century.

This isn't exactly bad, considering that the oldest manuscripts of Plato date to the 10th and 11th centuries.

You don't, for a second, consider that Jesus might not think the way you believe he did? Especially since what he said was said in a completely different time?

This is my field. I am more sure that Scripture accurately conveys Christ's teachings, than I am that Plato conveys Socrates.

[Ben Kenobi]

In a non-judgmental manner, because when you start getting judgmental, they retreat or get defensive.

Why do Christians insist on being treated as non-Christians? In-house disputes are entirely different than with those who are not Christian. You want to claim Christ, you must abide by what he teaches, that's all there is to it.

We are supposed to encourage our fellow Christians in their walk with the Lord.

And we are supposed to warn them when they have strayed from the path.

We aren't supposed to go off on them about something they are doing that may not actually be sin

And this is the crux of the matter. It is sin! By saying that sin is not sin, you are leading others astray. I'm sorry Imran. You want homosexuality to be not sinful. What's next? Adultery? Incest? Are these sinful too?

Is anything at all sin?

If they come to you for help, that is a different matter. But to go off on things you believe are sinful is not treating the person with love and kindness. It is that which changes people and makes them clamor for the Holy Spirit transforming their lives, if they need it, not judgmentalism.

You won't find the holy spirit if you are steeped in sin. You must repent and turn away from sin.

I know people who believe homosexuality (or, rather, acting on homosexual temptation) is a sin, but they aren't judgmental towards gay people, but rather are very loving and kind towards them.

Do these gay people claim that they are Christian?

[Ben Kenobi]

I think He most definitely is. He uses people so that they may persuade.

Ok, whatever, I don't really find this side argument compelling or worth the time. Christ uses whomever he wants for his purposes. Arguing that because you dislike someone makes their preaching wrong is probably a good sign that Christ is working through them. Saying that Christ only works with the 'good people' persuasive or no is actually contradicted by scripture.

And what is sinful is something for each believer to discover through talking with God and asking him. Leviticus says tattoo's are sinful and for some, they believe that they are. For others, they have peace about it.

So again, you are faced with the same problems as before. Homosexuality is sinful. You can reword and dodge and reinterpret however you want, but the question I have for you, is what if you are wrong? If you are wrong, you've basically condemned yourself and everyone who's followed your words about sodomy to hell. It's not me you need to be concerned with, but Christ.

This is why I'm being so adamant here, at making sure that the clear words of Christ are understood by those who are seeking to obfuscate and colour them with their own words. I want you to be saved, to know Christ and his commandments in your life. I don't want you, or any of you here to be among the damned, and I'm very worried that you are guiding them down the wrong path.

A) you have implied you are better in faith

I have not said anything wrt to my faith. All I have argued is that this is what Christ teaches, we should follow it because Christ preaches it.

B) you have not even slightly proven that Jesus says homosexuality is sinful

Then why does he say "men and women" and not "men and men, or "women and women" Why did God make them male and female?

Last I asked this question I got crap spam from loin.

That is a warning as to how you may recognize a false prophet.

And you don't feel that applies to you? Your teachings on this matter of marriage are bad fruits. It's one thing to claim, "this is what I believe", quite another to claim, "Christ approves of sodomy, and blesses it". Or saying "Sodomy is a blessing and not sin.

It is a call to avoid those false prophets. God will be the ultimate judge of them. Making an internal judgment about the validity of someone's teaching in order to decide whether to follow them or not is far different than being outwardly judgmental of those with contrary beliefs in order to enforce your version of orthodoxy.

It's not my version of orthodoxy. All I say, is compare the fruits. Good tree, good fruits, bad tree bad fruits. What are the fruits of sodomy, Imran? Do you really want to chain others to a life of suffering?

Btw, many Protestants have used that verse to determine the Catholic Church is led by a false prophet. Just sayin'. After all, if you judge, you will be judged in likewise manner.

It is a legitimate response to disagreements between Christians. And I think the Church has been proven right. What is the fruit of their dissent? Endless division between Christians. Each man being his own pope. Luther knew this, feared this, and did it anyways.

[Ming]

One, Galileo was condemned for his mechanistic philosophy, not for his observations of the universe.

Two, matters of faith an morals are issues for the popes, not scientific discoveries.

Hmmm...

In 1612, opposition arose to the Sun-centered theory of the universe which Galileo supported. In 1614, from the pulpit of the Basilica of Santa Maria Novella, Father Tommaso Caccini (1574–1648) denounced Galileo's opinions on the motion of the Earth, judging them dangerous and close to heresy. Galileo went to Rome to defend himself against these accusations, but, in 1616, Cardinal Roberto Bellarmino personally handed Galileo an admonition enjoining him neither to advocate nor teach Copernican astronomy

It sure seems like the Church didin't agree with his teachings and his observations of the universe... and guess who was proved right in the long run

Following a papal trial in which he was found vehemently suspect of heresy, Galileo was placed under house arrest and his movements restricted by the Pope.

Heresey... must have been a matter of faith. I guess the Pope got that one wrong too. He must not have been listening to God.

[Ming]

It is a legitimate response to disagreements between Christians. And I think the Church has been proven right. What is the fruit of their dissent? Endless division between Christians.

Exactly how has the Church been proven right?
What proof do you offer?

The answer is, there is no proof that any side was right or wrong. The reason why there is division between Christians is that there can be many interpretations and who is to say which one is right.

You will obviously claim that only the Pope is right... but please point out where "Jesus said" the Pope is always right.

And what about the Pope being a chicken**** in WW2 and going along with the holocaust. While the story is that the church helped the Jews privately, they didn't do it publicly for fear of the Germans. They sure weren't following in the grand tradition of Jesus, who publiclly announced who and what he was upon penality of death. Kind of like the current scandals... more interested in protecting themselves instead of doing the right thing.

We can go back and look at many examples where the Pope was involved in many evil things... but I guess you would say that anything the Pope did was OK because god was whispering in his ear.

The Church has always had it's scandals and has been full of corruption... things like selling annulments, a direct disregard for the what they call the "sacrament" of marriage. It's no wonder many have disagreed with this evil institution and went off to actually follow Christ's real teachings.

[N35t0r]

This is a terrible argument.

One, Galileo was condemned for his mechanistic philosophy, not for his observations of the universe.

Two, matters of faith an morals are issues for the popes, not scientific discoveries.

1) False. His condemnation was directly related to his opposition to geocentrism. Which was thought to be a moral issue at the time. So popes can be wrong on what is a moral issue and what isn't.

It took nearly 500 years to prove that the geocentric universe theory was in fact false, even after Copernicus developed heliocentrism. The popes in the meantime were with some splendid scientists, including Tycho, who developed and alternative system (which, btw, was the theory that the pope and the Catholic church stood behind). The only error that Tycho made is that the universe is a great deal larger than he suspected and his instrumentation was insufficient to accurately measure parallax.

It's only been 150 years that we have known beyond a doubt that the heliocentric universe is true. That's not very long in the grand scheme of things.

SO ****ING WHAT!?

My argument is that the Church has known to be wrong. I couldn't care less if the popes enjoyed to fondle Tycho Brahe, since IT DOESN'T HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ARGUENT.

You are aware that the textual evidence of scripture is extremely strong?

Tell me where I said otherwise.

Yes, we don't have the originals. The oldest complete codexes are Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, both dating to the early 4th century.

So 1700 rather than 1500

This isn't exactly bad, considering that the oldest manuscripts of Plato date to the 10th and 11th centuries.
This is my field. I am more sure that Scripture accurately conveys Christ's teachings, than I am that Plato conveys Socrates.

Which would be relevant if my argument had anything to do with Socrates.

[Jon Miller]

There were references from people who knew the disciples of Christ that refer to books of the NT, so more like 1900 years (incomplete).

Entirely respectable, and far better than we have for other ancient documents.

96 AD for Clement.
Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna
all were taught by disciples of Christ (They also all reference Paul's letters)

Polycarp's student Irenaeus wrote against the gnostics, and pointed to the 4 traditional gospels as the correct ones

JM

[N35t0r]

(...)and far better than we have for other ancient documents.

...

Which would be relevant if I had poroposed to base Christ's teachings based on another ancient document.

[Ben Kenobi]

It sure seems like the Church didin't agree with his teachings and his observations of the universe... and guess who was proved right in the long run

That's a very poor summary as to why. I've studied it both ends. The church was a-ok with Copernicus.

They had a problem with Galileo's mechanistic philosophy, ie, empirical knowledge extending to spiritual realms. Back then they didn't make the distinction between the heavens and space that we do now.

[Asher]

Another Family Values politician, another ******. These are the types of gays that go to the "saunas", by the way: the closeted types.

http://www.towleroad.com/2010/05/australian-family-values-mp-david-campbell-resigns-after-being-filmed-leaving-gay-sex-club.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+towleroad/feed+(Towleroad+Daily++%23gay+news)&utm_content=Google+Reader

AUSTRALIAN 'FAMILY VALUES' MP DAVID CAMPBELL RESIGNS AFTER BEING FILMED LEAVING GAY SEX CLUB

Australian Labor MP David Campbell resigned today after being filmed leaving a gay sauna, the Herald Sun reports:

"Campbell is accused of using a ministerial car to go to a gay club in Anzac Parade, Kensington, in Sydney's Eastern Suburbs, on Tuesday evening, Channel 7 reported tonight. It is alleged he stayed for two hours at Ken's, also known as KKK , which is a popular gay sauna. The club lies in Ms Keneally's electorate of Heffron. The club has a $22 entry fee and assures clients discretion as they offer services for men who prefer men. TimeOut Sydney described Ken's as 'today's most popular gay sauna ... The iconic sauna has been servicing queer Sydney's sexual appetites for more than 25 years. Between the dimly lit steam room, sizzling sauna, glory hole maze, dark room and porn theatre, Kens caters for every taste ... Butt Naked nights are towel-free so patrons get to size up their prey before they commit to getting a room, while weekday Lunchtime Specials pull in a crowd who take the concept of Happy Meal to a whole new level.'"

Campbell is married with two children.

Said Campbell in a statement: "I have resigned as Minister for Transport and Roads for personal reasons, not for any reasons relating to my Ministerial duties. I apologise to my wife, family, colleagues, staff and the community for letting them down. This will be a very difficult time for my family and friends and I ask for their privacy to be respected."

Same Same reports: "Channel 7 allege that Mr Campbell spent two hours at Kens. Campbell has been member the Wollongong seat of Keira since 1999, and has campaigned strongly as a family man. He is the former NSW police minister."